KVR Audio

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:06 pm

botkiller wrote:Are we supposed to say that it's ok for a synth to be so alike in features because so many people hated the previous synth, and the company went under? Sorry, that's not how it works.

so, where is that supposed to have been said, then?

botkiller · Post by **botkiller** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:07 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
botkiller wrote:Are we supposed to say that it's ok for a synth to be so alike in features because so many people hated the previous synth, and the company went under? Sorry, that's not how it works.
so, where is that supposed to have been said, then?

Edited - Luigi didn't state something about hating koblo - MO asked that things not turn into a "we hate koblo" thread - from another thread.

"I always found that Nexsyn had so much potential in it's basic design, but lacked something sound-wise (and I'm not even going to go into the business model! Please let us not turn this into another we-all-hate-koblo-thread : - )). "

from: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=30

Makes sense to me. I'm just wondering why it looks so similar, and opens presets that play properly in it.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:08 pm

botkiller wrote:
rlahalla wrote:
botkiller wrote:I'm not here to start smack, but... I gotta say, guys - this is a bit fishy - you don't think so?
No, because it was stated that Michael Olsen is working in collaboration with NUSofting, and Michael Olsen is the one who owns the code to NexSyn, and he has the legal right to do what he pleases with it. Nothing fishy there at all.
Please feel free to show me where it is stated that the code for the synth is owned as such. I would certainly love to see it.

Please feel free to show me where its stated that the code is not owned as such.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:13 pm

botkiller wrote:In the statement from the Dev, as well as others here in the past, about their hate for Koblo/k2s. Feel free to read up yourself, if you're so inclined.

erm, no, im asking for you to provide the proof of your claim, not for you to tell me to look for the proof of your claim.

although, if what you're saying is that you're accepting what i find as proof, then no, nothing ive seen 'from the dev' remotely resembles that. you're happy to retract on the basis of what ive discovered?

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:13 pm

It seems discourteous, not to mention ineffectual, to discuss this with everyone but the developers. I've sent them an email so they can respond.

botkiller · Post by **botkiller** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:13 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
botkiller wrote:
rlahalla wrote:
botkiller wrote:I'm not here to start smack, but... I gotta say, guys - this is a bit fishy - you don't think so?
No, because it was stated that Michael Olsen is working in collaboration with NUSofting, and Michael Olsen is the one who owns the code to NexSyn, and he has the legal right to do what he pleases with it. Nothing fishy there at all.
Please feel free to show me where it is stated that the code for the synth is owned as such. I would certainly love to see it.
Please feel free to show me where its stated that the code is not owned as such.

Having been on the k2s dev team, I can tell you that the rights of NexSyn were locked up in a lot of who-owns-what when the company went under. That's all I know. I didn't get into property rights. I never said that I know WHO owns what. What I DID say is that if a synth looks a lot like another one, down to the wording on its GUI, AND it opens presets from the other synth (and vice/versa, as Nyquist has pointed out), then, well, that's interesting to me.

It's been stated that Entity uses a reverb and OSC coded by MO. K, that makes sense. But if a NexSyn preset opened in Entity opens and operates properly, that IS questionable. That's all l'm saying. I haven't accused anyone of stealing code, here. I HAVE questioned why the two are so similar, however - and others have as well.

So perhaps you should ask the guys developing THIS synth. I could ask Max, though we don't talk much anymore, and I"m not interested enough to do so.

botkiller · Post by **botkiller** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:15 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
botkiller wrote:In the statement from the Dev, as well as others here in the past, about their hate for Koblo/k2s. Feel free to read up yourself, if you're so inclined.
erm, no, im asking for you to provide the proof of your claim, not for you to tell me to look for the proof of your claim.

although, if what you're saying is that you're accepting what i find as proof, then no, nothing ive seen 'from the dev' remotely resembles that. you're happy to retract on the basis of what ive discovered?

I've edited what I posted, as it was a mis-read on my part. MO and Luigi have been courteous in their acknowledging that they "liked certain things" about NexSyn. I'm not supposing that they mean to start any kind of war (not that there'd be one to be had). I am, however, still curious about these things that have been brought up about the two synths and their similarities.

botkiller · Post by **botkiller** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:16 pm

Meffy wrote:It seems discourteous, not to mention ineffectual, to discuss this with everyone but the developers. I've sent them an email so they can respond.

It would be good to see some input.

Dr. Nyquist · Post by **Dr. Nyquist** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:17 pm

rlahalla wrote:
botkiller wrote:I'm not here to start smack, but... I gotta say, guys - this is a bit fishy - you don't think so?
No, because it was stated that Michael Olsen is working in collaboration with NUSofting, and Michael Olsen is the one who owns the code to NexSyn, and he has the legal right to do what he pleases with it. Nothing fishy there at all.

rlahalla, I just opened one of your presets you designed for Entity in a 4 year old version of NexSyn. I think that's what Brian means by "fishy". Fishy like the code/DSP may not have gotten a complete overhaul like stated.

To my knowledge MO owned parts of the source code not all of it. Max Gronlund designed and programmed the GUI. Lasse worked on the framework and the file structure. And some of the effects algorithms used in NexSyn were bought from a guy in Italy.

Now, that's not to say that MO didn't buy the rights to use (or license) all the code, and man, I certainly hope he and/or liqih did. The way I know MO is that he's smart enough to not do something like this if he didn't have rights to. He wouldn't damage his reputation like this. He's a fantastic programmer that is highly skilled in the ways of DSP and I regard him as a friend.

I hope that everything about this is legit. I really do.

Dr. Nyquist · Post by **Dr. Nyquist** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:26 pm

botkiller wrote:
Meffy wrote:It seems discourteous, not to mention ineffectual, to discuss this with everyone but the developers. I've sent them an email so they can respond.
It would be good to see some input.

I agree with both of you.

rlahalla · Post by **rlahalla** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:27 pm

Dr. Nyquist wrote:rlahalla, I just opened one of your presets you designed for Entity..

I'm flattered lol

did it destroy your speakers??

botkiller · Post by **botkiller** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:30 pm

Let me be clear about something, here - I have NO VESTED INTEREST in NexSyn or the companies that made it, not now. I'm not bringing these things up because I want to squash a developer. I have no interest in that. I respect the hell out of MO, and I've liked Luigi's synths in the past. However, I do have an interest in finding out about these things I've mentioned. I think it's worth asking about when the two are so similar/can open each other's presets/etc.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:30 pm

Dr. Nyquist wrote:rlahalla, I just opened one of your presets you designed for Entity in a 4 year old version of NexSyn. I think that's what Brian means by "fishy". Fishy like the code/DSP may not have gotten a complete overhaul like stated.

Can I make the assumption that you're not a programmer?

If you're not, please dont assume that a consistency in the data structures used by two pieces of software means that the code for those software need have any interdependency.
That's the basis of how your web browser and its competitors all read web pages, after all. Or OpenOffice transparently reading and writing MS Office files.

Data used by an algorithm is not the algorithm. If you are a programmer, you should know this already.

Depending on how the data is stored, its entirely possible for the data to be parsed consistently, and produce similar results, even if none of the underlying code is the same.

Dr. Nyquist · Post by **Dr. Nyquist** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:35 pm

rlahalla wrote:
Dr. Nyquist wrote:rlahalla, I just opened one of your presets you designed for Entity..

I'm flattered lol did it destroy your speakers??

Ha! No, the built in limiter kicked in!

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:39 pm

To make explicit my position: I'm doing the documentation for Entity; I work on the docs for lots of synths, effects, and whatnot. I have no access to source code. I don't know anything about NextSyn so I'm not qualified to speak on whether any similarity in architecture corresponds to similarity in code. I thought that had already been dealt with, but maybe there's more to it. Michael and/or Luigi will have to address that.

NUSofting - Entity.