u-He Zebra II Vs Arturia Complete (Analog)

[Fred_Abstract]

I have Zebra 2.5 it is the best sounding I have ever tried or owned

For that pure analog sound I prefair U-he Ace http://www.u-he.com/cms/ace it was designed to simulate the components of a semi modular analog synth at the cost of lots of CPU. I run it through Soundtoys Decapitator to get more analog magic. You can try the demo of both.

Urs is working on a modular analog simulation called bazile that is free for the so far unfinished version.

it s just a illusion, when you will try a really good analog synth and a real tube distortion you will get analog magic and i own and love both plugins you mentioned .

marketing and hype on the net make people think plugins sound just as good as hardware,not yet.

[goldenanalog]

Possibly. Maybe they just had a totally different sounding Mini than ours.

I think that PAK made some good points regarding the Minimoog-we tend to forget in this digitally sanitized world of ours that analog instruments are all individuals; and that there are going to be significant changes to an instrument that is manufactured over better then a decade, in addition to the servicing that it could see between when it was made, and now. Plus: It's also certainly possible that Creamware was listening for (and therefore modeling) different aspects of the Mini then what we would do now...I see ALL of us somewhat collectively learning as we continue to refine and augment what has already been done so far.

[Lotuzia]

Minimax doesn't model distortion in the VCA and filter closes quite early... I suppose it was modeled after a Voyager rather than a Model D (even though the gui suggests otherwise). That's at least what we observe with the Scope version...

That doesn't surprise me, but it still sounds pretty good; and Plugiator (especially in bundle form, with the other 7 e-mu's) is a good deal. My guess is that it was modeled after the elder statesman since I believe that Creamware's Mini e-mu was on the market before the Voyager (but I could be wrong about that)

The Pulsar patform was built in ......... 1999 and the Minimax could be found in the Pulsar, and also the Luna platform also included a true Waldorf osc.

Otoh Voyager was released in 2002.

Else :

As for Aruria updates, there have been some updates indeed. And the new models have some new things as well ( tied by NDA there but you can see it from the pictures they posted with the SEM ) but .....

Even if they did not have any updates, the ImpOSCar ( before V2 ie 7 years) and the KOrgs MS-20 and Polysix didn(t have any updates since version 1. And there are still some of my fav VAs since this time.

Having updates isn't in any case a garantee of quality, you can update a thousand times a dull or bad synth wich will still be a dull synth in the end, and a synth wich was sounding great in its first 1.0 incarnation doesnt not necessarily "need" updates. Its only a choice made by developpers.

Dont misunderstand me, the PolyKB II added a lot of dunctionalities over the first incarnation, wich already sounded gorgeous as it btw - we "only" added a lot of depth in programming -, and I'm not saying that synths should, or should not, be updated in a more or less regular basis. I'm just saying that this option is not directly connected to the quality of a synthesizer

Some synths have also been bettered within their update cycle.

Who would like to update a Strat 56 or a Stradivarius ? Instruments do sound good, or they sound less good, whatever their version number, that's the only valid point at the end of the mix imho.

LtZ

[PAK]

My guess is that it was modeled after the elder statesman since I believe that Creamware's Mini e-mu was on the market before the Voyager (but I could be wrong about that)

Wikipedia says the Voyager was released in 2002. Minimax was definitely around by then or before, so the basis will be a Model D of some sort. I wonder if the coder(s) responsible are still the same people working at Sonic Core on John Bowens' Solaris? Anyone know?

Having updates isn't in any case a garantee of quality, you can update a thousand times a dull or bad synth wich will still be a dull synth in the end, and a synth wich was sounding great in its first 1.0 incarnation doesnt not necessarily "need" updates. Its only a choice made by developpers.

But I wasn't speaking in general terms about updates. I was being extremely specific to emulation accuracy alone. If people point out differences, which are ignored, then what impression do you suggest should be formed? That this doesn't matter because the synth works and sounds good enough? Stating that an update won't necessarily improve things states the obvious. The point is if a developer is prepared act, where differences are pointed out, it shows a much better attitude than if they simply don't care.

But, anyway, its clear a large/entire rewrite of Arturia's engine would probably be required to properly copy the attack behaviour of a Minimoog better (by that I also include resonance behaviours etc), and that simply won't happen. So those of us, that would like to see such a thing, must look elsewhere. The attack behaviour of the Oberheim (at least OBx/xa/8 ) wasn't always the fastest, so maybe their code limitations won't be as evident to people on the new SEM V. And, yes, the SEM V keyboard follow looks to be pretty cool. But what chance of them adding it to the rest of their emulations? Just like they didn't bother adding the Jupiter 8V's features (like VCO side FX) to anything else either. Not cool.

Add such an approach to the fact that they pay the money to use the name and likeness (the later often to the detriment of their own GUI, because they're so busy copying the likeness that it makes it difficult to see controls) and its perhaps not surprising that they are often bashed on forums, whether fairly or unfairly.

Even if they did not have any updates, the ImpOSCar ( before V2 ie 7 years) and the KOrgs MS-20 and Polysix didn(t have any updates since version 1. And there are still some of my fav VAs since this time.

Sure. But these are, again, obvious statements that nobody argued against. You can content yourself with the MS-20 in its current form. Although it's not like you have a choice in Korgs case, since it's clear they'd rather make iPad apps for now.

[goldenanalog]

I wonder if the coder(s) responsible are still the same people working at Sonic Core

I have a story that I'd love to tell you guys about Creamware if we we're all sitting around in a pub or bar somewhere, but I better not share such juicy tidbits in an open forum (of course: Even that statement itself is in poor taste!)The short answer is that I believe Sonic Core to be owned by the former employees of Creamware; I 'm not 100% sure about their connection with John Bowen/Solaris, but it's probably a safe assumption that John probably used their resources...it may be a matter of NDA because Sonic Core in part still retains the rights of Creamware's IP as well as at least some by Use-Audio! (It's a cloudy picture, and I know that there's some bad blood, there!)

[PAK]

John probably used their resources...it may be a matter of NDA because Sonic Core in part still retains the rights of Creamware's IP as well as at least some by Use-Audio!

There's a link about their work on Solaris right on the main Sonic Core page, so I don't think it's a secret

I just wondered if the developer(s) involved in Minimax are still around, or they found more profitable DSP work coding eject algorithms for smart-toasters or something

[goldenanalog]

Well, here's where it gets really cloudy PAK: Creamware hired In-DSP to code the ASB and KLANG boxes; when Creamware went down, one of the principals at Creamware formed a separate overseas operation called: Use-Audio! They retained the IP that they used for the boxes, and perhaps 'borrowed' a few more Creamware IP that they had marginal possession of, and built a couple of things (including the Plugiator) based on the IP that they had so-called possession of, iirc

[EvilDragon]

So that's why Plugiator is hard to find over here! Thomann doesn't even list it anymore.

[goldenanalog]

They're still around-for all I know, Use-Audio might be In-DSP in disguise! Sweetwater seems to channel them through ebay from time to time- 400us for the bundle! Not only that: Use-Audio has seemed to have upgraded the coding, so that the plug-ins run stable. The Plugiator is Chinese made, basically nondescript in appearance, but if you want a DSP analogue type sound, it's one of the cheapest solutions around.

[EvilDragon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Use-Audio-Plugi ... 35b6992aac

Try $350. With all plugins. Damn, that's a neat deal! I'll have to ask for overseas shipping to Croatia, though...

[Uncle E]

Minimax doesn't model distortion in the VCA and filter closes quite early... I suppose it was modeled after a Voyager rather than a Model D (even though the gui suggests otherwise). That's at least what we observe with the Scope version...

The Minimax is modeled after the Model D. Compared to my own Model D, I found the Minimax's oscillators to be nearly perfect but the filter to be more resonant and less saturated, which are indicative of what you're saying. That said, a customer of mine owns one of the actual prototype Model D's in museum condition and he said the Minimax's filter and saturation are identical to his Model D, so I always assumed that my Model D was out of spec (mine was super beat up from road use).

I personally get much more accurate Minimoog sounds from Minimax than Zebra but I'm admittedly NOT a Zebra power user so this probably comes down to my lack of abilities. Urs, once Zebra 2.6 is released, can you make some good Mini presets for those of us who need a familiar place to get started from?

[electro]

Minimax doesn't model distortion in the VCA and filter closes quite early... I suppose it was modeled after a Voyager rather than a Model D (even though the gui suggests otherwise). That's at least what we observe with the Scope version...

The Minimax is modeled after the Model D. Compared to my own Model D, I found the Minimax's oscillators to be nearly perfect but the filter to be more resonant and less saturated, which are indicative of what you're saying. That said, a customer of mine owns one of the actual prototype Model D's in museum condition and he said the Minimax's filter and saturation are identical to his Model D, so I always assumed that my Model D was out of spec (mine was super beat up from road use).

I personally get much more accurate Minimoog sounds from Minimax than Zebra but I'm admittedly NOT a Zebra power user so this probably comes down to my lack of abilities. Urs, once Zebra 2.6 is released, can you make some good Mini presets for those of us who need a familiar place to get started from?

Why Creamware never made these synths accessible to the Native VST community like UAD does is still a mystery.

[Uncle E]

Who would like to update a Strat 56 or a Stradivarius ?

56 strats may sound amazing but they play like crap. Give me an easy playing, hum canceling Suhr any day.

[Uncle E]

The Plugiator is Chinese made, basically nondescript in appearance, but if you want a DSP analogue type sound, it's one of the cheapest solutions around.

Agreed. You can also load it into a CME keyboard as the ASX, alongside the Waldorf Nano, which would make for a great sounding little touring package.

[kmonkey]

Why Creamware never made these synths accessible to the Native VST community like UAD does is still a mystery.

What the heck are you talking about ?? What mystery? UAD doesn't have single synth. Not a single one! UAD is DSP system and their plugins (effects only) are hosted on any DAW supporting VST. Ex Creamware now SonicCore is also DSP system. They offer effects AND synths and they can also run by any host with VST support.

But other then that they (Scope platform) offer near zero latency. Something which is impossible on UAD. Yes you can plug in your guitar and connect it to chain of effects and then through some modular synth and get crazy super quality tones. With about 3ms delay..

UncleE i have about the same experience. With Minimax i can get closer to what people call Moog tones (and beyond) then with Zebra (demo) but i am not Zebra power user. I would like to see some moog patches on Zebra 2.6 as well..

Someone should point out that Minimax is very old, yet it still catch up with rookies quite well.

Btw no John Bowen isn't doing anything for SonicCore now (afaik). He is making his own range of Synths and they can be ordered via his page and in SonicCore shop as well.