Waves NLS Non-Linear Summer released

[Compyfox]

Nothing new to me.

And I still say that no plugin among all of them is superior in what they are doing - they sound completely different, even though they work on a "similar" level.

[MFXxx]

I like this as a simple example of what can be done with sound. Im not worried about the technical details but this has got me inspired enough to demo it, espacially as i love VCC. Still use Strip and Satson for busses as well



I think I can find some love for this plugin...along with UBK-1 this is a good combo for drums imho.

[Sequent]

I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.

I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...

[Grain Bastard]

I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.

Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.

[Grain Bastard]

Console plugins like VCC, NLS and SATSON do "sum" the audio signal like an analog console would do "in theory". It not only adds saturation, but also "bleeds" the mixed channels together (crosstalk).

StripBus lies on a whole different ballpark. This plugin can be considered an "own mixing console". The channels interact depending on how much they overload, but they don't necessarily bleed with each other. That is for STRIPbus at least. stripBUS is just a master bus compressor.


There is one thing that all of these summing and console type plugins do nowadays: they let us rethink how to properly mix again. They teach us how to gain stage, how to measure in, how to mix while not overdoing sh*t. And here, Slate VCC was one of the forerunners.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that the cross-talk emu was just between the left and right channels in a stereo channel and nothing else interacts.

Regarding the summing, I had this discussion when Shaite Digital 'announced' VCC and all I got from them was insults telling me to learn how analog mixers work!!!! As already stated, its nothing of the sort and never will be until tighter integration is allowed into the actual DAW. Summing snake oil.......

I'll happily admit that the big part is the saturation algo, and Shaite have done a good job with that, but as far as the summing goes, snake oil.

Regarding the 'proper mixing' advice, I couldn't agree more. That is probably the main reason peoples mixes sound 'better' with VCC and credit where its due, the metering and gain staging advice that comes with the plugin is probably worth the far from rip-off price they charge. I understand marketing is important etc but it went too far imo and suggested it does more than it actually does. What my argument was interested in was would the same 'properly' gain staged mix WITHOUT one of these 'console plugins' used sound good? Of course it will and we already have tools that offer the saturation thing, but has anyone tried them all really subtly on a really well mixed session??? I still maintain that the most influential 'tool' in the studio is us, the person making the decisions, yet it seems that more and more people are pinning their hopes on DSP to bypass the years of work it takes to become a competent engineer. Poor DAW mixes are rarely the fault of digital summing imo. Just sticking a console emu over the poor DAW mix is it magically 'fixed'? No, to get the best out of them you put the mix right and then it sounds good!! Making it easier for people to get to that stage of the mix isn't something I expected these plugins to do if I'm honest. Slate pissed me off to put it mildly, when I asked them what I assumed were reasonable questions but the educational properties of VCC is worthy of more recognition than their 'analog summing'. Hopefully the Waves NLS plugin will also have this pleasant side effect (to get back OT )

Just MHO.

[audiosabre]

I'm happy with VCC, Satson & StripBus. I'm not demoing NLS until it's $129 or less (street). Wait, I'm being generous there. >$99 is better

[Sequent]

Exactly!


<Edit> Looks like Mixbus is still on sale for $149 and they've even set up a 3 payment option for folks on a tight budget.

I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.

Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.

[3ee]

I'm happy with VCC, Satson & StripBus. I'm not demoing NLS until it's $129 or less (street). Wait, I'm being generous there. >$99 is better

Honestly, some prices at Waves are just ridiculous, literally, after trowing something native in the basket to check out the price, I close the window and start laughing

Now, they are trying to bribe us with "some" small prices.. but I won't forget what they did for so many years, no sir!

Added: Than again, why do I want some of their stuff? ..ow well, better make the best of what I got!

[Sequent]

Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!

..ow well, better make the best of what I got!

[hibidy]

Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!

..ow well, better make the best of what I got!

So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?

[SuperFly76]

Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!

..ow well, better make the best of what I got!

So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?

I remember watching that movie as a kid.

Back OT, I'm interested in this plugin but will wait it out and see how the responses here and on other forums pan out. As it is, I'm very happy with StripBus and Satson for my console emu needs.

[shanecgriffo]

Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!

..ow well, better make the best of what I got!

So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?

oh i love that bit when he puts on the glasses, it's one of my favorite bits of cinematography for some reason, i just like that weird mood of it, just those signs,.. not so much the aliens.. for some reason it really stuck in my mind.

[Compyfox]

I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.

Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.

You forgot "Record" by Propellerheads who also claim to have used an SSL design/emulation. Then again, Mixbus is not a real console port either. Not only does it come with a buggy (still open source!) host, but basically it does nothing else than the used to combo, just sans the additionally needed insert slot.

The only system that does channel interaction on overload is SKnote's STRIPbus.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that the cross-talk emu was just between the left and right channels in a stereo channel and nothing else interacts.

This is correct if you look at SATSON, NLS and especially VCC in terms of the summing/bus plugin. The channels themselves do not offer crosstalk. STRIPbus does offer that however on a per-channel basis (for stereo channels as well). At least in one version I tested.

Regarding the summing, I had this discussion when Shaite Digital 'announced' VCC and all I got from them was insults telling me to learn how analog mixers work!!!! As already stated, its nothing of the sort and never will be until tighter integration is allowed into the actual DAW. Summing snake oil.......

I'll happily admit that the big part is the saturation algo, and Shaite have done a good job with that, but as far as the summing goes, snake oil.

Not quote correct. Summing means "adding up signals" in short. So a summing plugin or a summing device does nothing than mixdown individual channels of a mixing console into a stereo bus/channel (for the most parts). You could in theory just use a simple stereo group for that purpose - the saturation algo in this case is added bonus and adds the "crosstalk" in some cases (depending on the plugin, either very subtle or strong as hell).

Do you consider Variety of Sound's summing plugin TESSLA PRO also snake oil? Granted, no crosstalk (to my knowledge), but still.

What about passive summing cables/boxes where only resistors were used to mess with the sound and the stereo output is the summed signal basically? Snake oil as well? Try to find the summing cable article by Eric Beam (rhyhthminmind) on his blog - I'm sure that topic will open your eyes.


Else, Steven (or whoever answered) was totally right in terms how to learn how an analog mixer works. You can't port it into digital form - you need to know the relation between worklevel (in RMS!) and headroom. Hence the up to -20dB reference point. Only if you understand that, you understand how all these plugins work and can work with them like they are intended to.

Regarding the 'proper mixing' advice, I couldn't agree more. That is probably the main reason peoples mixes sound 'better' with VCC and credit where its due, the metering and gain staging advice that comes with the plugin is probably worth the far from rip-off price they charge.

I stated this to the developers several times. The manual is a bit misleading and definitely confusing, it also lacks certain informations. This is why I wrote a short manual in how to use these things (see my KVRmarks).

I understand marketing is important etc but it went too far imo and suggested it does more than it actually does. What my argument was interested in was would the same 'properly' gain staged mix WITHOUT one of these 'console plugins' used sound good? Of course it will and we already have tools that offer the saturation thing, but has anyone tried them all really subtly on a really well mixed session??? I still maintain that the most influential 'tool' in the studio is us, the person making the decisions, yet it seems that more and more people are pinning their hopes on DSP to bypass the years of work it takes to become a competent engineer. Poor DAW mixes are rarely the fault of digital summing imo. Just sticking a console emu over the poor DAW mix is it magically 'fixed'? No, to get the best out of them you put the mix right and then it sounds good!! Making it easier for people to get to that stage of the mix isn't something I expected these plugins to do if I'm honest. Slate pissed me off to put it mildly, when I asked them what I assumed were reasonable questions but the educational properties of VCC is worthy of more recognition than their 'analog summing'. Hopefully the Waves NLS plugin will also have this pleasant side effect (to get back OT )

Just MHO.

The Slate plugin does indeed mess with the source material. Sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways. I can do with and without - sometimes I even prefer not going for VCC as it messes too much with the sound.

Mixing with proper gain staging and sticking to certain limits does indeed help and reduce overcompressed mixes on the long run. But this is nothing to get pissed about Slate and on the other hand praise another developer. You're not forced to use them - they just add some additional bonus (that I highly advice to take a closer look with an analyser first!) on top. Else you can simply use a calibrated VU to level in your signal.

If it's worth anything, you can still learn a lot with either of these plugins (if they are calibrated!) and here price-wise Sonimus and MellowMuse are your best bets, maybe SKnote as well but the VU's are hard to read. What you think of the other individuals in terms of sound shaping is definitely personal preference. If it works for you, fine. If it doesn't, fine with me as well. It's your workflow after all.




Hm... I should finally write that analog-plugin/gain staging series I plan for a while now on my blog...

[hibidy]

oh i love that bit when he puts on the glasses, it's one of my favorite bits of cinematography for some reason, i just like that weird mood of it, just those signs,.. not so much the aliens.. for some reason it really stuck in my mind.

And @superfly:

I just don't think that so many are immune to "oh cool, check this new thing out". I love the idea of "use what you have" but if something comes along with an advantage, I'm interested.

However, @ product: Not seeing it. Maybe it's because I use reaper or already have satson, but I'm just not really seeing what my 250 usd would get me here.

[Compyfox]

@hibidi:
I'd get it for the EMI TG12345 alone - but they could have put in the HLS (Helios) channelstrip as well. So the price is indeed a bit steep for just that purpose. It's just one among many SSL/Neve ports, even though the consoles were different and that Neve one is not one of the usual ported suspects either.