But ttoz and Crackbaby, it's not worth a fight. KVR is still a great community.
For the record, I also thought ttoz's earlier reactions were a bit odd, possibly in the category of passive-agressive hostility (he also jumped the gun on gloating over the survey responses). Stil, if he thinks that misrepresention/inaccurate promotion is a good reason to go out and buy from a company, he'll certainly find lots of opportunities.
I think what happened is, based ttoz's comments in his posts, he feels "brand loyalty" to Sonic Implants and the need to defend them against anyone who has a bad experience. I would never argue that there are not people who have had good experiences with Sonic Implants. I'm simply not one of them. Probably, I'm guessing, some of the satisfied folks may be the ones who purchased the Giga version that, as Mr Fox stated, "a lot of extra effort went in to...because (we) had to go back to the original tapes and get the extra samples that were added. Just to give you an idea, the Soundfont version of Amps & Pickups is 109 Meg, while the Giga version is 562 Meg."
He might as well have gone on to state the obvious: Yeah, of course, the Giga version is nothing like the inferior Soundfont version you purchased for the same price without our mentioning upfront that there is a vast difference between these products. That's alright though, even though we used the same exact title, demo and price for the crap product we sold you as we did for the superior one, we'd now like to tell you what comparative garbage that version is to the superior Giga version to support our having to make the difference up for $75 more. You know the rules, let the buyer beware. You were too stupid in the first place, and you took too long to catch on to our practices. So now we'd like to charge you more money because we can.
However, I, as a consumer have even more power (as do all consumers). As a consumer, I have the power to say I will not buy from this company again and I will tell others about my experience.
- eDrummist
Is this sample company practicing good business? You vote.
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 10 Sep, 2003 from Karlskoga, Stockholm, Sweden
That is the best thing i have ever read in this forumeDrummist wrote:He might as well have gone on to state the obvious. Yeah, of course, the Giga version is nothing like the inferior Soundfont version you purchased for the same price without our mentioning upfront that there is a vast difference between these products. That's alright though, even though we used the same exact title, demo and price for the crap product we sold you as we did for the superior one, we'd now like to tell you what comparative garbage that version is to the superior Giga version to support our having to make the difference up for $75 more. You know the rules, let the buyer beware. You were too stupid in the first place, and you took to long to catch on to our practices. So now we'd like to charge you more money because we can.
- eDrummist
You hit the jackpot!-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1210 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
FYI, I contacted the President of Sonic Implants and made her aware of this thread and invited her to look over and respond in this Forum.
I think this is the fair way to handle this issue, as it gives the KVR community to be educated on a situation which may be very relevant to them if they were considering buying from Sonic Implants, the ability hear both sides of the story and it also makes everyone aware of how Sonic Implants promotes their products prior to the sale and how they treat their customers after the sale.
- eDrummist
I think this is the fair way to handle this issue, as it gives the KVR community to be educated on a situation which may be very relevant to them if they were considering buying from Sonic Implants, the ability hear both sides of the story and it also makes everyone aware of how Sonic Implants promotes their products prior to the sale and how they treat their customers after the sale.
- eDrummist
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
eDrummist, have you talked to Sonic Implants recently about the idea that you feel the demo is much better than the product you received, and that you feel you were mislead by them using a Gigasample-based demo to represent a Soundfont-based product?
I know that you talked to them about getting the Gigasample version, and that a discount was offered, but did you mention to them the notion that you feel the demo is deceptive?
If you talked with them about what you considered to be a deceptive demo, what did they have to say for themselves?
If you did not talk to them about the "demo deception issue", then please do so now, and please give us a break here on KvR.
While I'm truly sympathetic to someone that spent good money on a product they aren't happy with, the people using the KvR forum can't give your money back, and can't upgrade your product. My advice is to talk to Sonic Implants one more time. This situation will never be resolved by dumping a lot of your personal energy into KvR posts.
good luck,
McLilith
I know that you talked to them about getting the Gigasample version, and that a discount was offered, but did you mention to them the notion that you feel the demo is deceptive?
If you talked with them about what you considered to be a deceptive demo, what did they have to say for themselves?
If you did not talk to them about the "demo deception issue", then please do so now, and please give us a break here on KvR.
While I'm truly sympathetic to someone that spent good money on a product they aren't happy with, the people using the KvR forum can't give your money back, and can't upgrade your product. My advice is to talk to Sonic Implants one more time. This situation will never be resolved by dumping a lot of your personal energy into KvR posts.
good luck,
McLilith
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1210 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
McLilith,
I did email the VP Opertaions and the President of Sonic Implants with the details of my disatisfaction with their practices and desire for the Giga version.
Understand, I am not airing this situation just to get a deal for myself (funny, watch ttoz do that in the Dash thread while he misunderstands and criticizes me) -- this is a matter of principle and consumer action. I am alerting the KVR community to a practice which I find problematic. I already tried to resolve my issue with Sonic Implants and was unsatisfied with their response. I would desire that Sonic Implants change their practices, not just for me, but for everyone.
This is a big part of what communities are all about -- it gives consumers power to disseminate good and bad experiences. I do it in part because I wanted others to learn of my experience, and also because I want to get the word out and also, to influence Sonic Implants to see things from a customer's perspective -- which isn't always easy to do -- even for small companies (in case you thought otherwise).
If you wonder about my motives, you will find I have helped out a several small developers in the area of marketing who I've met through KVR (as a consultant, I'd charge $200 per hour). I greatly appreciate the KVR community.
You always have the right to ignore this thread.
- eDrummist
I did email the VP Opertaions and the President of Sonic Implants with the details of my disatisfaction with their practices and desire for the Giga version.
Understand, I am not airing this situation just to get a deal for myself (funny, watch ttoz do that in the Dash thread while he misunderstands and criticizes me) -- this is a matter of principle and consumer action. I am alerting the KVR community to a practice which I find problematic. I already tried to resolve my issue with Sonic Implants and was unsatisfied with their response. I would desire that Sonic Implants change their practices, not just for me, but for everyone.
This is a big part of what communities are all about -- it gives consumers power to disseminate good and bad experiences. I do it in part because I wanted others to learn of my experience, and also because I want to get the word out and also, to influence Sonic Implants to see things from a customer's perspective -- which isn't always easy to do -- even for small companies (in case you thought otherwise).
If you wonder about my motives, you will find I have helped out a several small developers in the area of marketing who I've met through KVR (as a consultant, I'd charge $200 per hour). I greatly appreciate the KVR community.
You always have the right to ignore this thread.
- eDrummist
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 17 Feb, 2004
AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.
My goodness, what a lot of messages generated over one person’s dissatisfaction. There have been a lot of assertions made which are simply not true, so I thought I would respond to things one by one.First of all, regarding the MP3 Demos: the demos on our web site, with the exception of our high end Symphonic String Collection and the specifically labeled Kurzweil format V.A.S.T. demos, are ALL created in Soundfont format.
We create our demos by taking the audio output of the Audigy Soundcard that is in our Soundfont development station, and sending it directly into Sound Forge, then saving it as an MP3 demo. Other than using the reverb on the Audigy soundcard, no other processing our EQ is done to the sound.
So, right off the bat, eDrummist’s assertion that the quality of our demos is different than what he has on his CD is simply not true! He should be able to get the exact same quality, provided he either has a Creative Labs soundcard, or else has a software sampler that correctly imports ALL the soundfont programming parameters. (We currently recommend using Vsampler 3.0. Another good program is LiveSynth pro, but it is no longer available since Live Update went out of business.)
So let me repeat - the quality of the samples in the demos is the EXACT quality of the samples that are on eDRummist’s CD that he purchased.
We use the Soundfont format for our MP3 demos, because it is the simplest format, with the least amount of programming possibilities. So anything that can be done in Soundfont format can be done in the other formats, and hearing the Soundfont version will give you a good idea of what the file sounds like, no matter which format you choose.
Furthermore, the WAV samples are the exact same files in all formats, so the quality of the samples themselves is identical in all formats. In the case of some of our products, certain formats have more samples than the other formats, due to memory limitations, but the demos you hear use only the samples that are found in all formats.
Of course, another aspect of creating a good quality demo is the sequencing itself. As many people are aware, emulating acoustic instruments in sequences is a real art form. The guy we have who does many of our sequences (particularly our guitar stuff) is a great player and a true sequencing artist. Obviously, that is a factor when it comes to evaluating how good demo sounds.
2. Regarding the issue of the price being the same for the different formats: The first thing to be aware of is that Amps & Pickups was initially released first in Soundfont format, then in Akai and Kurzweil formats. The price is $149.95. All these formats have the same amount of data. These types of samplers all require samples be loaded into Ram, and therefore memory is an issue. When we decided to create the Gigasampler version, we knew that memory was not an issue (because Giga streams from disk). Since we had additional samples from the original recording sessions, we decided to go back and add them. We also decided not to charge more for the Giga version than for the other versions, since they had been shipping for a while (and in fact many Giga owners had even purchased the Soundfont version previously).
So contrary to the impression that we created a stripped down version for Soundfont users and then charged them the same amount, it is actually that the Giga users are getting additional material without being charged extra. And we stand by our price of $149.95. The CD is certainly worth that much, as MANY, MANY, MANY of our users have told us.
3. To clear up an incorrect statement by Crackbaby,
This price difference appliues to our new Amps & Pickups 2 title, NOT the original Amps & Pickups 1, which eDrumist is referring to. We did in fact decide to charge less for the Soundfont version of this title, because it is only a single CD, while the Giga and Kontakt versions are 2 very full CDs. Again, this is ude to the fact that Soundfonts can’t stream samples from disk but require loading sample data into memory.For what i can read on their site, SF2 version costs $199.95 and GIGA costs $229.95.
4. I would like to address this “inferior” / “superior” format issue that people keep mentioning. It is important to keep in mind that soundfonts are a format intended for and marketed to the hobbyist/semi-pro musician, while Gigasampler was intended for the High end pro, and has a price tag that reflects that. IT would be normal to expect differences in the formats.
5. As has been pointed out, we don’t sell multi-format disks, like some other companies do. This is because, unlike many other companies, we don’t just simply convert from one format to another and leave the files as is, we then spend an extensive amount of time programming each native format, tweaking all the programs so that they play properly in that format. As many people are aware even the bets conversion programs net get everything 100%. Furthermore, because we specialize in sampling acoustic instruments and programming them so that they are extremely playable, converting is a far more complex process than a company that is selling drum loops or synth samples.
Which brings me to my next point.
6. I think very few musicians out there realize the enormous amount of man-hours required to do good sound design. In addition to the time and money need to do quality recording of acoustic instruments, the processing and programming time is huge. Because each format that we support takes so much of our engineer’s time and effort to create, we must charge for each format title that we sell.
We have a policy of a 50% discount for format crossgrades. We feel that this is an entirely reasonable policy, as it gives the customer a break for getting the same samples twice, but also allows us to help pay the cost of the engineer’s time and effort. I believe that most of our customers would also agree this is entirely reasonable.
7. Finally, despite what eDrummist thinks about the quality of his CD, we stand behind our product. Sonic Implants is well known and highly respected in the sample industry for providing high quality, extremely playable samples of acoustic instruments. For those of you not familiar with our product, I would strongly encourage you to check out the many demos on our web site. And once again, I would remind you that what you hear on those demos is exactly the quality you will get on the CDs. Also, I would encourage people to read the many, many testimonials we have gotten, unsolicited, from our customers – many of which are for the exact same products that are on the Amps & Pickups CD. You can find our testimonials at http://www.sonicimplants.com/company/testimonials.asp (http://www.sonicimplants.com/company/testimonials.asp). YOu can also find many reviews of our products from various print and online magazines.
I am sorry that eDrummist is not satisfied with his original purchase, but I honestly feel that his dissatisfaction is personal, and does not reflect the quality of that CD.
David Fox
Director of Operations
Sonic Implants
Director of Operations
Sonic Implants
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1210 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
David,
Thank you for your very thorough response on this issue for the KVR community.
I will take you at your word concering the demos and, accordingly, apologize for my, appearantly incorrect assumption about the MP3s being from the Giga version. The demos honsetly did/do not sound identical to the samples I received to my ears and I took it that they reflected the extra content in the superior Giga format CD for the same price that you told me about in your email long after the sale.
In any event, I hope Sonic Implants will consider providing its site visitors with more pre-sale information concerning Soundfont VS other formats as well as any specific products where content is substantially different from one format to another, yet priced the same (i.e., Guitars and Amps Soundfont and Giga versions being radically different, and the Giga version featuring over 400 meg of additional content, yet priced identically, but sold to buyers of the Soundfont version for an additional $75 only after they learn of the comparitive inferiority of their sample set.
Persuading Sonic Implants to modify the MP3s (which I will take you at your word, was my error), the lack of pre-sale information and the upcharge that comes later were the key issues I hoped to bring to Sonic Implants attention. I hope you will consider these issues from a customer perspective and modify them.
In fact, I would gladly purchase your product for the $75 upgrade price once Sonic Implants adjusts its current practices I find problematic and begins informing customers prior to a sale of the vast differences in some of your libraries (as a marketing professional, I do not believe this adjustment will discourage sales, as it will only pre-inform people -- setting expectations).
In any event, I do not doubt that Sonic Implants makes good products and sincerely appreciate your responding. This issue was not merely a personal gripe for me, but something I felt strongly about as a marketing professional. I can't help but look at marketing practices with this lens and that's how I assessed Sonic Implant's practices. Honestly, it's nothing personal, although I admittedly bring passion to this issue.
In any event, I thank you for the response and hope that gaining a glimpse of the various perspectives of customers, potential and former customers will be used to make improvements.
Regards,
eDrummist
Thank you for your very thorough response on this issue for the KVR community.
I will take you at your word concering the demos and, accordingly, apologize for my, appearantly incorrect assumption about the MP3s being from the Giga version. The demos honsetly did/do not sound identical to the samples I received to my ears and I took it that they reflected the extra content in the superior Giga format CD for the same price that you told me about in your email long after the sale.
In any event, I hope Sonic Implants will consider providing its site visitors with more pre-sale information concerning Soundfont VS other formats as well as any specific products where content is substantially different from one format to another, yet priced the same (i.e., Guitars and Amps Soundfont and Giga versions being radically different, and the Giga version featuring over 400 meg of additional content, yet priced identically, but sold to buyers of the Soundfont version for an additional $75 only after they learn of the comparitive inferiority of their sample set.
Persuading Sonic Implants to modify the MP3s (which I will take you at your word, was my error), the lack of pre-sale information and the upcharge that comes later were the key issues I hoped to bring to Sonic Implants attention. I hope you will consider these issues from a customer perspective and modify them.
In fact, I would gladly purchase your product for the $75 upgrade price once Sonic Implants adjusts its current practices I find problematic and begins informing customers prior to a sale of the vast differences in some of your libraries (as a marketing professional, I do not believe this adjustment will discourage sales, as it will only pre-inform people -- setting expectations).
In any event, I do not doubt that Sonic Implants makes good products and sincerely appreciate your responding. This issue was not merely a personal gripe for me, but something I felt strongly about as a marketing professional. I can't help but look at marketing practices with this lens and that's how I assessed Sonic Implant's practices. Honestly, it's nothing personal, although I admittedly bring passion to this issue.
In any event, I thank you for the response and hope that gaining a glimpse of the various perspectives of customers, potential and former customers will be used to make improvements.
Regards,
eDrummist
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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Green Red Brownell Green Red Brownell https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7535
- KVRist
- 213 posts since 7 Jun, 2003 from Lake Joy, WA, USA
So, are you clowns properly embarrassed now, or what?
I think eDrummist had good intent with this thread, so I'm not blaming him at all. But a lot of threads (in all online forums, not just here) tend to turn into lynch mobs without a little adult guidance.
Next time, let's think a little bit before we "pile on", OK???
I think eDrummist had good intent with this thread, so I'm not blaming him at all. But a lot of threads (in all online forums, not just here) tend to turn into lynch mobs without a little adult guidance.
Next time, let's think a little bit before we "pile on", OK???
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1210 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
First, I still find Sonic Implants pre- and post- sale marketing practice problematic. I don't think I'm alone either. If you read my original post, I wasn't 100% certain about the MP3s. Read again. You have no idea, I am a recognized marketer with writing recommended by Harvard Business School, Northwestern and interviewed as an expert by international media and keynote presentations at marketing conferences. I know problematic marketing practices, despite the MP3. I'm not telling you this to boast, I want you to understand -- I know this area extremely well. I did not attempt to damage Sonic Implants reputation -- I sought to get SI to modify their marketing practices to be more upfront marketing so that consumers are better informed. Yes, I was irritated that they did something to me I felt was less than the highest integrity with their pre- and post- sale marketing. But when I thought that this happens to everyone who buys products from them I sought to act. I'm not a cheese-weeny kid who went off half-cocked.
This thread has nothing in common with the whinning ttoz has done with a small developer on this message board. There's no way I would invest this much time over $75, if that's all it was to it. This was about something I found problematic with Sonic Implants marketing practices. Believe it or mock me. I won't respond again concerning this unless its productive.
Second, ttoz, you are immature trouble-maker that hurts the quality of this board. I have noticed that you have a regular habit of trolling and harassing people and it is a disgusting habit and you are far below clever. However, I'm sure anything that I say to you will be lost on you, so I'm doing this to entertain the rest of the KVRers who don't appreciate your abuse. Want examples, anyone of what a menace this guy is?
ttoz on respecting others on KVR and intelligent discourse:
"i'm starting to really think you are an idiot. read my posts again."
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:09 pm Subject: Logic Problem
“…f**k YOU !!!!”
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:18 pm Subject: Is this sample company...
“…you are really starting to get on my nerves. i suppose anyone with a nic like that either implies:
1) you are a warez user
2) are f**ked up on crack
so i'll forgive you cause your obviously disadvantaged.”
ttoz on moderation and the (Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:00 pm) :
“now that i am drunk and i have the balls to say,i really dont like…"
…And a little later, on taking responsibility for his actions…
“shit, i can't believe i actually said that!”
ttoz on cultural sensitivity, taste and fending off any sense of reality:
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:08 pm
“q: what do you call a bunch of old greek women in a hot tub?
a: gorillas in the mist”
If that isn't evidence of someone's consistently juevenille, idiotic and offensive behavior, I'm sure anyone can find more on ttoz or just wait a day (or even following this post) and he'll provide more.
Regards,
eDrummist
This thread has nothing in common with the whinning ttoz has done with a small developer on this message board. There's no way I would invest this much time over $75, if that's all it was to it. This was about something I found problematic with Sonic Implants marketing practices. Believe it or mock me. I won't respond again concerning this unless its productive.
Second, ttoz, you are immature trouble-maker that hurts the quality of this board. I have noticed that you have a regular habit of trolling and harassing people and it is a disgusting habit and you are far below clever. However, I'm sure anything that I say to you will be lost on you, so I'm doing this to entertain the rest of the KVRers who don't appreciate your abuse. Want examples, anyone of what a menace this guy is?
ttoz on respecting others on KVR and intelligent discourse:
"i'm starting to really think you are an idiot. read my posts again."
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:09 pm Subject: Logic Problem
“…f**k YOU !!!!”
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:18 pm Subject: Is this sample company...
“…you are really starting to get on my nerves. i suppose anyone with a nic like that either implies:
1) you are a warez user
2) are f**ked up on crack
so i'll forgive you cause your obviously disadvantaged.”
ttoz on moderation and the (Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:00 pm) :
“now that i am drunk and i have the balls to say,i really dont like…"
…And a little later, on taking responsibility for his actions…
“shit, i can't believe i actually said that!”
ttoz on cultural sensitivity, taste and fending off any sense of reality:
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:08 pm
“q: what do you call a bunch of old greek women in a hot tub?
a: gorillas in the mist”
If that isn't evidence of someone's consistently juevenille, idiotic and offensive behavior, I'm sure anyone can find more on ttoz or just wait a day (or even following this post) and he'll provide more.
Regards,
eDrummist
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- KVRist
- 38 posts since 4 Jun, 2002 from Syracuse, NY
yes, there are a few things wrong here, in my unprofessional (i work in collection, what would i know?) opinion.
using the same demo is EXTREMELY misleading. its just plain wrong.
And if they were the same price, whats the big deal in just GIVING it to you???
there is certainly something rotten in denmark...
errr, no offense to denmarkians...
the way to do it right:
1. different demos for the soundfont and giga version.
2. when you demo the sf2, it tells you "get the better GIGA version with better samples and capabilities for XXX more"
3. make the sf2 version 50-75 bucks, and the giga version 150, with an upgrade possibility if you get the sf2 version for a reasonable price.;
or something like that.
i need to sleep
using the same demo is EXTREMELY misleading. its just plain wrong.
And if they were the same price, whats the big deal in just GIVING it to you???
there is certainly something rotten in denmark...
errr, no offense to denmarkians...
the way to do it right:
1. different demos for the soundfont and giga version.
2. when you demo the sf2, it tells you "get the better GIGA version with better samples and capabilities for XXX more"
3. make the sf2 version 50-75 bucks, and the giga version 150, with an upgrade possibility if you get the sf2 version for a reasonable price.;
or something like that.
i need to sleep
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- KVRian
- 1349 posts since 12 Jan, 2003 from Paris
David Fox wrote:Again, this is ude to the fact that Soundfonts can’t stream samples from disk but require loading sample data into memory.
SF2 disk streaming for all !!!
And it's free !
http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm
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- KVRAF
- 1954 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK
I liked the "Gorillas in the mist" joke 
Go theo!
I also have no problem with taking the piss out of my own kind. It probably won't mean anything to non UK people, but i grew up in somerset.
"I can't read and i can't write but that don't really matter, 'Cos i come from somerset and i can drive a 'trator"
Go theo!I also have no problem with taking the piss out of my own kind. It probably won't mean anything to non UK people, but i grew up in somerset.
"I can't read and i can't write but that don't really matter, 'Cos i come from somerset and i can drive a 'trator"