Moog Model 15

[Daags]

correct me if I'm wrong ... but the main aspect of '3d touch' that can't be recreated on existing ipad (pro) hardware is the haptic feedback .... haptic feedback may be a pleasant user experience, but it doesn't add to the expressiveness of an instrument... unless I'm missing something. which is possible since I'm an ipad newbie.

[mikebenson]

Does anyone know if there is a MAC/WIN VST Editor for this? ...minus the cable routing of course.

[Cinebient]

correct me if I'm wrong ... but the main aspect of '3d touch' that can't be recreated on existing ipad (pro) hardware is the haptic feedback .... haptic feedback may be a pleasant user experience, but it doesn't add to the expressiveness of an instrument... unless I'm missing something. which is possible since I'm an ipad newbie.

No, 3D touch is something like aftertouch and it works polyphony too. Also it's usable as velocity and velocity release. But for velocity there is an initial latency of 10ms. So it might be not accurate enough compared to a real keyboard but this might be getting better too in the future.
It's nearly the same like playing on a Seaboard Rise or Linnstrument etc. just without tactile feedback.
It works great on my iPhone 6S plus.
For things like polyphonic aftertouch it's great!
The Moog app uses this on the iPhone version.
So you have a X, Y and Z axis for initial values and/or aftertouch events and all that polyphonic.
But i wonder if they will do this for iPads since you will then hit it hard and it will break.... because they make the damn thing thinner every time

[Daags]

my question is relating to hardware ... I understand that 3d touch hasn't been implemented in the ipad (pros)... and I understand that 3d touch is more than just haptic feedback... but my understanding is that the things you describe are software related. and the only 3d touch feature that couldn't be implemented in existing ipad (pros), owing to hardware limitations, is the haptic feedback.

as far as I know, this is correct. But then again I know this is apple we are dealing with ... so the chances of them implementing a 3d touch, sans haptic feedback, for the ipad (pros) is probably remote.

[Cinebient]

my question is relating to hardware ... I understand that 3d touch hasn't been implemented in the ipad (pros)... and I understand that 3d touch is more than just haptic feedback... but my understanding is that the things you describe are software related. and the only 3d touch feature that couldn't be implemented in existing ipad (pros), owing to hardware limitations, is the haptic feedback.

as far as I know, this is correct. But then again I know this is apple we are dealing with ... so the chances of them implementing a 3d touch, sans haptic feedback, for the ipad (pros) is probably remote.

I just mean they could add it in the next iPad Pros since it is of course not possible to add via a software update since it uses an extra layer of sensors (or so) build in the screen.
The Apple pencil is usable as aftertouch too.
So i could use ten pencils to go there

[DayvanCowboy]

I still don´t know why Moog doesn´t release such beautiful apps also as desktop plug-in since we have things like the Seaboard Rise to play them even more expressive.

I think it goes against the Moog philosophy how people should interact with music. The computer interface with mouse is pretty shitty to be honest. You can get work done, but this excitement for a good ipad App is not for nothing. The touchscreen is the far better interface for music apps. There will always be naysayers, but i think they just don´t get it yet.

And regarding the Roli Seaboard, Moog Model 15 built in so many midi modulation sources that it is perfect to be used with such a controller. Expressive Controllers are one of the main focusses of the Lead Developer.

[johnrule]

The touchscreen is the far better interface for music apps. There will always be naysayers, but i think they just don´t get it yet.

Not really. I've been working with touch screens since the 80s, and was genuinely excited (and had them integrated into my studio) up until about 8 years ago, when the newness wore off.

They're just not practical for critical control, and the minimalist approach to a gui because of big fat fingers became annoying. Sectioning huge chunks of the interface just breaks the workflow imo. Using a high dpi device (like a mouse) allows you to have an extremely dense interface, that's all.

I much prefer 2 big monitors where I can see (and control) everything all at one time. Give me tactile controls for a studio, and for playing music. I really dislike sliding greasily around with my fingers on a glass surface (and constantly looking down to see if I'm still on the damn control!).

Yes, when it's new, it's fun. When you find people that have a different workflow, it's not always because they "don't get it yet" lol. Don't be so judgmental.

[Daags]

....it uses an extra layer of sensors (or so) build in the screen.

hmmm! methinks I need to do some further reading on the topic. I know some guy wrote an app for jailbroken ipads that recreates 'peep' and 'pop' on ipad pros ... using the high resolution mode the touchscreens have to work with the pencil.

[deastman]

....it uses an extra layer of sensors (or so) build in the screen.

hmmm! methinks I need to do some further reading on the topic. I know some guy wrote an app for jailbroken ipads that recreates 'peep' and 'pop' on ipad pros ... using the high resolution mode the touchscreens have to work with the pencil.

There is no haptic feedback on any of them, aside from the standard vibration. 3D touch strictly refers to pressure input... the Z dimension, hence 3D touch.

[Daags]

I know there's no vibration on the ipads ... so creating haptic feedback there will be, uh, difficult to say the least. if not magical.

as far as '3d touch strictly refers to pressure input' .... ummm... No, I don't think so. Not as far as apple are concerned. haptic/taptic are strongly associated with apple's 3d touch by apple themselves in their marketing blurb, infact they are getting sued over it by some company who claims they ripped off the idea. if you disagree with their definition of it, I really don't care - I'm not interested in some semantic pissing contest over it.

And when you use 3D Touch, your iPhone responds with subtle taps. So not only will you see what a press can do — you’ll feel it.

I'm also not interested in the haptic aspect of 3d touch anyway. The main thing I am interested in is if the other aspects of 3d touch, i.e Z dimension and what have you, are made possible through software or hardware unique to the devices that currently have 3d touch. Particularly in contrast to the ipad pros (with their high-resolution mode). My suspicions were/are that the 3d touch functions are software, though Cinebient is suggesting otherwise. I assumed they were sensing pressure by measuring how much skin per point of contact was pressed against the screen; the more skin, the more pressure. Maybe that is how they are doing it, but - if Cinebient's suggestion is correct - to do it in a multi-touch manner requires an updated touch screen ... which again leaves me wondering if the ipad pros have this updated touchscreen.

anyway. I'll research it elsewhere. cheers.

[Cinebient]

....it uses an extra layer of sensors (or so) build in the screen.

hmmm! methinks I need to do some further reading on the topic. I know some guy wrote an app for jailbroken ipads that recreates 'peep' and 'pop' on ipad pros ... using the high resolution mode the touchscreens have to work with the pencil.

That is a fake funktion and works with high latency and also as simple on/off.
But like i mentioned 3D touch needs to build into the hardware (like in a keyboard too) because it detects a continous change of your pressure in real time for each of your finger individually.
Using the amount of finger to "fake" that is also just a workaround and not nearly the same and not very acurate. Some apps uses this (like Mitosynth) and i think Bitwig uses it for the virtual keyboard too.
The Roli Noise 5D app shows what´s possible with this.
Simple said 3D touch is THE thing for me what could set it even much more apart of mouse and keys input.
I also prefer a multi-touch input and think it is the future. The old big OS are dinosaurs and in some years they will die out.
A mouse can be of course more precise but windows don´t force developers to make innovative multi-touch apps because it´s a half baked mixes thing.
I would sell my macbook pro and all the stuff in a heartbeat if i could get my favourite tools for an iPad Pro.
But of course everything is a matter of taste.

[DayvanCowboy]

I much prefer 2 big monitors where I can see (and control) everything all at one time. Give me tactile controls for a studio, and for playing music. I really dislike sliding greasily around with my fingers on a glass surface (and constantly looking down to see if I'm still on the damn control!).

I apologize for coming off as judgemental. Personally, i use a 40inch 4k screen and love it. What i meant to say was, that in theory, the touchscreen will always be superior to mouse. It takes new devices like the iPad Pro, and an entire software ecosystem to make them practical.

I absolutely love, that moog focusses on iOS exclusively!

[Cinebient]

I just played much today with Model 15 on my iPhone 6S plus and its´s really much fun, especially with 3D touch as polyphonic aftertouch on top.
It´s just amazing that i can have such a tool in my pocket while an iPad Pro just feels like a notebook.
I was always more a fan of the iPhone rather than iPad even when it can be a bit small here and there. Sadly the iPhone lacks many synth apps or still have much older versions.
A big plus that Moog supports both.
Apps like ThumbJam are also much better (for my personal usage) in the iPhone format. I like to use the tremolo and vibrato due to shaking the phone.
So it´s not only the 2 dimensional (or 3 dimensional) screen, you also have lots of sensors like gyroscope, accelerometer which can be used in interesting ways.
Next step maybe virtual reality ala´Minority Report style performences.
What i don´t get is that there are not at least more native apps to control desktop plugins.
But i think some developers should not miss the boat until it´s too late.
IOS might not be THE future of music but i think it will have a big impact.
But it could be also a good chance for newcomers because the desktop market is already oversaturated, a bit boring and hard for independent newcomers to be competive.
Whatever, it will be an interesting future for music production and it´s good that this opens this world also to people who can´t afford gear for several thousand of dollars etc.
Cheers!

[bungle]

What i meant to say was, that in theory, the touchscreen will always be superior to mouse. It takes new devices like the iPad Pro, and an entire software ecosystem to make them practical.

Total nonsense, in fact it is the same total nonsense that people spout whenever a "New mouse replacement" comes along, yeah and guess which one is still around.

[Cinebient]

I wouldn't say it's nonsense. But it's also no nonsense if people prefer mouse, trackpad or their prefered midi device, whatever!
I think it's a matter of taste.
Both have pro and contra. I think that newer generations grow up mostly with touch screens today and some of us dinosaur don't like that maybe or have no interest in it.
But as much i would like to have a touch OSX sometimes i think Apple does it right to seperate this. If you want the best of both worlds you can connect your iOS devices easy with a mac.
Not sure how it works with windows.
I don't like that mixed win10. Tryed it and couldn't get used to it. But i must also say that it's a fault to not include a mouse/trackpad support for iPad Pro.
It's great to have a large touch screen but not very comfortable to use it for hours. Your neck and shoulders won't love you
Maybe in 10 years we have something else
Most important is that you have fun and can live your creativity.
Enjoy making music!