ummm, is it too ot here for someone to tell me in three sentence what pdc compensation is and in what scenarios it affects things ?
i understand that it is some sort of timing compensation so that everything stays in sync when using different elements.
but what is the critical mix of elements that will reveal the problem ?
Ableton Live 4.0 Beta available to all! (at last)
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- KVRAF
- 1530 posts since 20 Feb, 2003
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Some plugs dont work in real time, their wet signal is delayed in comparison to their input.
Hosts compensate for this by delaying everything else relative to that plug.
This is ok for mixdown but obviously useless for playing live as it's like introducing a deliberate amount of latency.
Which makes me wonder why people are whinging about it in an app which is, after all, called LIVE.
Hosts compensate for this by delaying everything else relative to that plug.
This is ok for mixdown but obviously useless for playing live as it's like introducing a deliberate amount of latency.
Which makes me wonder why people are whinging about it in an app which is, after all, called LIVE.
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- KVRist
- 495 posts since 5 Sep, 2002 from Boston, Mass
Cabinfever.
Say you have a project that consists of 5 audio tracks.
Say you have a compressor plugin inserted on one of those audio tracks that for whatever reason has 500 ms of delay needed in order for it to work properly. Without PDC, if you played the audio tracks together, the track with the compressor on it would be 500ms out of sync with the rest of your tracks.
In order to compensate for this, you had to move that track with the compressor on it, 500ms earlier than the rest of the tracks.
With PDC enabled hosts, the host knows how much latency is introduced and plays all of the tracks at the appropriate times so everything is in sync.
Say you have a project that consists of 5 audio tracks.
Say you have a compressor plugin inserted on one of those audio tracks that for whatever reason has 500 ms of delay needed in order for it to work properly. Without PDC, if you played the audio tracks together, the track with the compressor on it would be 500ms out of sync with the rest of your tracks.
In order to compensate for this, you had to move that track with the compressor on it, 500ms earlier than the rest of the tracks.
With PDC enabled hosts, the host knows how much latency is introduced and plays all of the tracks at the appropriate times so everything is in sync.
If it sounds good it is good.
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- KVRist
- 495 posts since 5 Sep, 2002 from Boston, Mass
nufflink, I can't agree more.
On the box, live is called a 'sequencing instrument' There is a reason its call this, as opposed to 'just-another-sequencing-host-like-sonar-or-cubase-or-logic' etc etc.
Its clear that there is a rift forming where the developers created it to be used in entirely new situations and for entirely new purposes, and users, now that live incorporates more live performance tools, which happen to resemble features in a normal DAW are beginning to judge the app compared to actual sequencers.
On the box, live is called a 'sequencing instrument' There is a reason its call this, as opposed to 'just-another-sequencing-host-like-sonar-or-cubase-or-logic' etc etc.
Its clear that there is a rift forming where the developers created it to be used in entirely new situations and for entirely new purposes, and users, now that live incorporates more live performance tools, which happen to resemble features in a normal DAW are beginning to judge the app compared to actual sequencers.
If it sounds good it is good.
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- KVRAF
- 2336 posts since 13 Oct, 2002 from Terra Firma
But it may be possible for PDC work in a live setting. No one has proven that it's a physical impossibility yet so why not request it? I want my poco virus to work live in Live 4 just like the rest of my synths. Ableton have introduced synths and midi into the equation so the issue of PDC is going to come up whether people like it or not. If PDC doesn't work in a live setting then it might be possible to switch this off when playing live and rendering any delayed plugins to audio for the live gig.EricRichmond wrote:nufflink, I can't agree more.
On the box, live is called a 'sequencing instrument' There is a reason its call this, as opposed to 'just-another-sequencing-host-like-sonar-or-cubase-or-logic' etc etc.
Its clear that there is a rift forming where the developers created it to be used in entirely new situations and for entirely new purposes, and users, now that live incorporates more live performance tools, which happen to resemble features in a normal DAW are beginning to judge the app compared to actual sequencers.
Live has moved on since version one and it's inevitable that new users attracted by VSTi and midi capability are going to request changes. If musicians don't need synths/midi/PDC then there is always the option of continuing to use Live 3. Not that I recommend that because I've faith in Ableton that they will be able to keep us all sweet.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Two words. Caus ality.munchkin wrote:But it may be possible for PDC work in a live setting. No one has proven that it's a physical impossibility yet so why not request it?
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- KVRAF
- 2336 posts since 13 Oct, 2002 from Terra Firma
Expaaaand please.nuffink wrote:Two words. Caus ality.munchkin wrote:But it may be possible for PDC work in a live setting. No one has proven that it's a physical impossibility yet so why not request it?
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
You have a plug with 500ms delay.
You hit a C# key.
The wet signal comes in half a second later.
To compensate for this the plug would have to read your mind and fire that C# half a second before you hit it.
Causality needs little proof.
You hit a C# key.
The wet signal comes in half a second later.
To compensate for this the plug would have to read your mind and fire that C# half a second before you hit it.
Causality needs little proof.
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 15 Dec, 2003 from Hangin' out with my 5 year old
f**k PDC, it should make my girlfriend look and sound like Norah Jones.nuffink wrote:While we're at it I'd like a host that compensates for vst's that crash, look ugly and sound bad.
f**k it, if the host has to compensate for shit coding, and ancient hardware, it may as well go the whole hog.
And all life's fears
Can invade my ears
I can handle it
Can invade my ears
I can handle it
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- KVRAF
- 2336 posts since 13 Oct, 2002 from Terra Firma
But it doesn't seem to work this way in Sonar 3. This has full PDC and it's possible to play synths in realtime including my Virus without perceived delay. Even look-ahead limiters seem to work ok.nuffink wrote:You have a plug with 500ms delay.
You hit a C# key.
The wet signal comes in half a second later.
To compensate for this the plug would have to read your mind and fire that C# half a second before you hit it.
Causality needs little proof.
The only difficulty is that when editing live Sonar is not completely gapless but it's close and better than Sonar 2 (which didn't have full PDC).
Last edited by munchkin on Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 980 posts since 25 Feb, 2003
E X A C T L Y !nuffink wrote:Which makes me wonder why people are whinging about it in an app which is, after all, called LIVE.
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- KVRAF
- 2336 posts since 13 Oct, 2002 from Terra Firma
A U - C O N T R E!dr.wackler wrote:E X A C T L Y !nuffink wrote:Which makes me wonder why people are whinging about it in an app which is, after all, called LIVE.
It's also called 'ABLE'ton.
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- KVRian
- 980 posts since 25 Feb, 2003
This works only with OSX.munchkin wrote:A U - C O N T R E!
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- KVRAF
- 2874 posts since 22 Oct, 2002 from "somewhere between digital and analog"
I think the midi editor works better at this point than anything else I've used... and it's a beta! Add the flexibility for quickly reconfiguring said clip to just about anything including changing it to audio... I was expecting a clunky piano roll thing that barely worked at this stage... I remember when Acid implemented VST support and midi... It was awful, and barely worked... Hell, I could use this program the way it is... If it just had PDC, than surely I'd be happy...