Surge vs top free/paid synths

[ampetrosillo]

Yes. It's just that I understand where the negative comments are coming from. A synth like Diva is laid out in a way that makes it easier to come up with a useful patch within seconds. Diva is a good example of a streamlined synth with not so many walls you eventually bump into. A disclaimer: I learned to use synths on a Waldorf Blofeld, which is certainly not a Juno. But even there, despite all the menu cycling, you had a better sense of what to do to end up with the kind of sound you had in mind, within the limitations of the synth of course.

[EvilDragon]

Blofeld is much closer to Surge than Diva is, for sure.

In any case - I do understand where negative comments are coming from, too. But Surge will always be a "maximalist" synth (and Surge XT 2.0 even moreso - but it will be laid out better as far as connection between signal path and where things are on UI goes) - that is its signature. It's not for beginners (although, some people actually do use Surge in education, believe it or not!), but it rewards patience with very fast workflow once you "get it". And IMO, it doesn't really take all that long to "get it".

[ampetrosillo]

A suggestion: since the parameters are so many, and as they often vary according to oscillator mode or whatever, there should be some integrated help, just to remind you what does what and why. Most of the functionality is explained in the documentation, so it's not like the information isn't there (it isn't, at times - for instance, all the Airwindows effect modules, but since Surge only selects a relative few Airwindows effects, it makes sense to add documentation for them). The way TDR do it is, I think, a very good implementation of "online help" without cluttering the UI.

[D-Fusion]

Yes. It's just that I understand where the negative comments are coming from. A synth like Diva is laid out in a way that makes it easier to come up with a useful patch within seconds. Diva is a good example of a streamlined synth with not so many walls you eventually bump into. A disclaimer: I learned to use synths on a Waldorf Blofeld, which is certainly not a Juno. But even there, despite all the menu cycling, you had a better sense of what to do to end up with the kind of sound you had in mind, within the limitations of the synth of course.

It is just as easy to dial in a usefull patch on Surge as it is on Diva.

I actually find Diva a bit more complicated with all the different modules and envelope modes.
I also don't like that i have to click between the editing the synth tab and the browser tab all the time on Diva and Repro.

[EvilDragon]

A suggestion: since the parameters are so many, and as they often vary according to oscillator mode or whatever, there should be some integrated help, just to remind you what does what and why. Most of the functionality is explained in the documentation, so it's not like the information isn't there (it isn't, at times - for instance, all the Airwindows effect modules, but since Surge only selects a relative few Airwindows effects, it makes sense to add documentation for them). The way TDR do it is, I think, a very good implementation of "online help" without cluttering the UI.

We already link to documentation from the ? menu entry when you right click on pretty much anything in Surge... For most people, this is sufficient.

Fair point about Airwindows, though. Although, it's still 78 effects, "relative few" is a curious way to put it, haha!

[IvyBirds]

With scripting you can do whatever you want, IMHO however it's better to do so using a DAW or VST host that supports it and then controls the plugins parameters using Host Automation

That's fine, but monophonic, and it is not intrinsically tied/stored with the patch. Lua scripting in Surge is available in both per-voice and scene-level LFOs. You can do a lot more than with host automation this way.

Actually that's not true I have full MPE support with scripting under Gig Performer would you like for me to share an example of a script that uses polyphonic LFOs to control something like panning?

You can also utilize it with plugins that don't support MPE if they multitimbral because you can round robin each incoming note to be on a different MIDI channel and simply load the same patch 16 times

As far as storing that in your host rather than the patch I view this as an advantage

For example let's say I am browsing my pad presets in Surge, and I decide want each note to start with a different randomized panning position and then slowly move around the stereo field in different directions and speeds (I have a script that does exactly that). I want to do this with any pad when I want it to happen. It's far easier to do this at the host level because I can use it on any patch on the fly with just a few clicks. In surge if I find a pad I like it while working on a track I can just turn on MPE with one click and then go into the matrix and assign MPE X, Y, or Z to pan. Then let's say I decide after I work on the sound further a different pad would be better, I can just swap out Surge for Omnisphere and use it. If I don't find anything I like in Omnisphere, I can just easily swap it out for something else and the script doesn't change. If I then decide I don't want randomized panning per note I can simply turn off the script and it's gone while the patch doesn't change

[EvilDragon]

MPE is fine, sure but it does have limitations on resolution since it's bound to MIDI 1.0 still. Formula modulator gives out the same 32-bit floating point resolution as the rest of internal processing. And it's fully polyphonic, not limited to 15 voices of polyphony like MPE.

Anyways, different strokes for different folks. There are very clear benefits to the Formula modulator that surpass MPE several times over. That's why it's there as an option for those who want to make the best of it.

[IvyBirds]

MPE is fine, sure but it does have limitations on resolution since it's bound to MIDI 1.0 still. Formula modulator gives out the same 32-bit floating point resolution as the rest of internal processing. And it's fully polyphonic, not limited to 15 voices of polyphony like MPE.

And? If MPE is so bad why does Surge support it at all then? And if MIDI 1.0 is so bad why doesn't Surge support MIDI 2.0? That's the issue Surge doesn't support MIDI 2.0 or high resolution MIDI Data

Will also say when it comes to per note modulations less is often more if you have more than 15 voices of polyphony with different values if something either it will all get lost and not matter it will start to sound like a disorganized mess as you won't be able to hear 24 different distinct values of something they will all just blend in to each other

Using scripting at the host level also doesn't prevent you using it simultaneously at the plugin level. So if I ever run into a situation where I want to use Surge, and want per note modulations, with more than 15 notes of polyphony and at higher resolution than what I can get by feeding it MIDI 1.0 which is my only option in Surge I can always use the internal scripting

I live in the real world however where I haven't really found use for such things that actually sound good and work in a musical context, and where the bulk of the plugins I use don't have built in scripting.

So should I use a workflow where I only use Surge? (Even you don't do that) Or shall I use a workflow that gives me the flexibility to do things with scripting across as many plugins as possible, again I live and work in the real world and want a workflow that works across as many different plugins as possible without reinventing the wheel

[EvilDragon]

Where did I say MPE is bad? Honestly...

As for MIDI 2.0 support, that is going to come through DAWs, rather than each plugin writing their own support (that is a very very bad way to go about it). Also, JUCE 9 will support it, so once that happens, Surge will be onboard that train, too.

[ampetrosillo]

Yes. It's just that I understand where the negative comments are coming from. A synth like Diva is laid out in a way that makes it easier to come up with a useful patch within seconds. Diva is a good example of a streamlined synth with not so many walls you eventually bump into. A disclaimer: I learned to use synths on a Waldorf Blofeld, which is certainly not a Juno. But even there, despite all the menu cycling, you had a better sense of what to do to end up with the kind of sound you had in mind, within the limitations of the synth of course.

It is just as easy to dial in a usefull patch on Surge as it is on Diva.

I actually find Diva a bit more complicated with all the different modules and envelope modes.
I also don't like that i have to click between the editing the synth tab and the browser tab all the time on Diva and Repro.

Hey, I like Surge. I use it all the time. But I am a nerd. (Aren't synth users nerds by definition?). When I work on Surge with my band mates, they are utterly confounded. With Diva, a little less so.

[IvyBirds]

Where did I say MPE is bad? Honestly...

As for MIDI 2.0 support, that is going to come through DAWs, rather than each plugin writing their own support (that is a very very bad way to go about it). Also, JUCE 9 will support it, so once that happens, Surge will be onboard that train, too.

So we agree that DAWs should support MIDI 2.0 so why not scripting around that then since MIDI data is easily manipulated at the host level

I already have MIDI 2.0 capable controllers, a MIDI 2.0 capable OS and MIDI Capable DAWs
So in Cubase for example I can host plugins that use the VST3 standard and send Cubase MIDI 2.0 Data

In Cubase the MIDI 2.0 32-bit controller data is bound directly to each single MIDI note, so why wouldn't I also then want to apply any scripting right there that manipulates it? That way each project becomes plugin agnostic. Cubase can do this will VST3, Bitwig can do that with CLAP

The problem is that all of this is in it's infancy, so in the meantime I will just use MPE because I live in the real world despite the fact of things like this

MPE is fine, sure but it does have limitations on resolution since it's bound to MIDI 1.0 still. Formula modulator gives out the same 32-bit floating point resolution as the rest of internal processing.

[Andreya_Autumn]

For some reason Surge XT filters the waveforms. I can't really find any setting to avoid that. Does anybody know if this can be avoided?

What exactly do you mean by "filters the waveforms"?

You can turn those off by selecting "off", but I'm guessing that's not what you mean? You mean the scene highpass? Right click that one and you can disable it (or choose different slopes).

[SamDi]

How does Surge sound now expressed in x/10, when Massive X and Zebra 3 are 10/10?

[vanerio]

For some reason Surge XT filters the waveforms. I can't really find any setting to avoid that. Does anybody know if this can be avoided?

What exactly do you mean by "filters the waveforms"?

You can turn those off by selecting "off", but I'm guessing that's not what you mean? You mean the scene highpass? Right click that one and you can disable it (or choose different slopes).

For example, if I import a perfect Saw, the 3D shows it correctly, but the actual waveform is filtered with what seems to be a very low frequency high pass filter, and ends in a different waveform than the one that was imported.

3D vs 2D view of the SAME waveform:

filter.png

('Classic sawtooth' also has this "filtered" shape by default).

[D-Fusion]

Yes. It's just that I understand where the negative comments are coming from. A synth like Diva is laid out in a way that makes it easier to come up with a useful patch within seconds. Diva is a good example of a streamlined synth with not so many walls you eventually bump into. A disclaimer: I learned to use synths on a Waldorf Blofeld, which is certainly not a Juno. But even there, despite all the menu cycling, you had a better sense of what to do to end up with the kind of sound you had in mind, within the limitations of the synth of course.

It is just as easy to dial in a usefull patch on Surge as it is on Diva.

I actually find Diva a bit more complicated with all the different modules and envelope modes.
I also don't like that i have to click between the editing the synth tab and the browser tab all the time on Diva and Repro.

Hey, I like Surge. I use it all the time. But I am a nerd. (Aren't synth users nerds by definition?). When I work on Surge with my band mates, they are utterly confounded. With Diva, a little less so.