SX 3 vs. Logic 7
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
To jon9091: That DP mixer is indeed looking great. Is it freely configurable?
To Arksun: I admit, I forgot about the super slim mixer view.
Still, what does it give you? Level control and an option to bypass inserts, sends and EQ bands. Not even send adjustment.
Then, about the project channel strip in SX: It's a laugh. Why?
It doesn't work as a channel strip. In a channel strip I expect to see all used elements of a channel at once. But with SX you need to permanently switch between viewing sends, inserts, EQs and level. You can't even keep the level fader visible all the time.
In Logic I have permanent access to send levels, volume, pan and a doubleclick takes me to my insert settings (you could also activate EQ, but I prefer to use them in inserts).
The same is true for the mixer. I just can't decide that I'd like to see, say, 2 inserts and 3 sends. I can either see my sends or I can see my sends. In case I'm not in insert view mode, to edit an insert effect allways takes at least two operations (either activate insert view or switch on audio channel settings, then edit the insert).
Anyways, these aren't even the things annoying me the most about SX's mixer. Those (two) have to be:
1) No direct access to audio channel parameters for VSTis in the project channel strip. While the MIDI channel setting *might* make sense for multitimbral/multiout instruments, it's making close to no sense for single instruments. In that case I'd allways prefer to see the audio channel settings straight away.
This should at least be there as an option.
Now, Steinberg thought they should be clever and implemented an additional "E" knob on the lower right of the inspector. This will at least take you straight to the audio channel settings popup. But my oh my, they did it only half-assed again. Once you switch to another track and then back, the popup will have changed to the MIDI channel setting one - just what I didn't want in the first place, thus almost rendering their all so shiny new "E" button useless.
As a subset of this behaviour, a linked audio mixer (btw., whether you link a mixer or don't is only available as a global preference, which is as stupid as it could get, same goes for linked editors, but that's just another weird story...) won't show up (or select) the VSTi's audio channel but the MIDI settings channel again. I never have them shown in my mixer, so linking mixers makes close to no sense for me. On a sidenote, one could at least expect the mixer to link properly once one selected the "subtracks" of the Projects VST-Instruments folder track, still no go.
2) The mixer isn't configurable. You can adjust a few things, but those merely are "presets" done by Steinberg. You can't just swap mixer channels around. Which is what I am (or was, depending...) doing all the time in Logic. I just don't need a mixer allways only representing my arrange track order (btw, you can have that in Logic as well, using the track mixer).
Yeah, you may now argue that SX is emulating a hardware mixer - but then, this IS no hardware mixer!
On a hardware mixer I DO have access to all the channels all the time, but due to limited monitor space and mouse mixing, software mixers should offer more options than hardware mixers - one of the most important options being that you can place your channels just like you want, regardless of your arrange order.
However, this is drifting away... I better shut up for now.
To Arksun: I admit, I forgot about the super slim mixer view.
Still, what does it give you? Level control and an option to bypass inserts, sends and EQ bands. Not even send adjustment.
Then, about the project channel strip in SX: It's a laugh. Why?
It doesn't work as a channel strip. In a channel strip I expect to see all used elements of a channel at once. But with SX you need to permanently switch between viewing sends, inserts, EQs and level. You can't even keep the level fader visible all the time.
In Logic I have permanent access to send levels, volume, pan and a doubleclick takes me to my insert settings (you could also activate EQ, but I prefer to use them in inserts).
The same is true for the mixer. I just can't decide that I'd like to see, say, 2 inserts and 3 sends. I can either see my sends or I can see my sends. In case I'm not in insert view mode, to edit an insert effect allways takes at least two operations (either activate insert view or switch on audio channel settings, then edit the insert).
Anyways, these aren't even the things annoying me the most about SX's mixer. Those (two) have to be:
1) No direct access to audio channel parameters for VSTis in the project channel strip. While the MIDI channel setting *might* make sense for multitimbral/multiout instruments, it's making close to no sense for single instruments. In that case I'd allways prefer to see the audio channel settings straight away.
This should at least be there as an option.
Now, Steinberg thought they should be clever and implemented an additional "E" knob on the lower right of the inspector. This will at least take you straight to the audio channel settings popup. But my oh my, they did it only half-assed again. Once you switch to another track and then back, the popup will have changed to the MIDI channel setting one - just what I didn't want in the first place, thus almost rendering their all so shiny new "E" button useless.
As a subset of this behaviour, a linked audio mixer (btw., whether you link a mixer or don't is only available as a global preference, which is as stupid as it could get, same goes for linked editors, but that's just another weird story...) won't show up (or select) the VSTi's audio channel but the MIDI settings channel again. I never have them shown in my mixer, so linking mixers makes close to no sense for me. On a sidenote, one could at least expect the mixer to link properly once one selected the "subtracks" of the Projects VST-Instruments folder track, still no go.
2) The mixer isn't configurable. You can adjust a few things, but those merely are "presets" done by Steinberg. You can't just swap mixer channels around. Which is what I am (or was, depending...) doing all the time in Logic. I just don't need a mixer allways only representing my arrange track order (btw, you can have that in Logic as well, using the track mixer).
Yeah, you may now argue that SX is emulating a hardware mixer - but then, this IS no hardware mixer!
On a hardware mixer I DO have access to all the channels all the time, but due to limited monitor space and mouse mixing, software mixers should offer more options than hardware mixers - one of the most important options being that you can place your channels just like you want, regardless of your arrange order.
However, this is drifting away... I better shut up for now.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505 - KVRAF
- 8036 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
The best part is that you can show/hide each individual track, you're not limited to showing either an exact replica of what's in the arrange window, or a single mix group like Bus, MIDI Instrument, Audio, Master out etc.Sascha Franck wrote:To jon9091: That DP mixer is indeed looking great. Is it freely configurable?
I seem to recall that you can show/hide sends, solo/mute/record, FX etc. as well.
I wish Logic and SX would stop trying to rip each other off and take a hint from DP here.
The only downside to DPs mix implementation is pretty subtle really, you configure the size of your project based on a list of set ups, 24 stereo 24 mono, 8 stereo 8 mono, unlimited stereo etc., it must save some CPU juice is all I can figure? though you can change it later if the song grows too big for the set up you chose.
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- KVRist
- 85 posts since 2 Nov, 2003
Yep, plus you can re-arrange channels just by sliding them wherever you want.machinesworking wrote: The best part is that you can show/hide each individual track, you're not limited to showing either an exact replica of what's in the arrange window, or a single mix group like Bus, MIDI Instrument, Audio, Master out etc.
And you can freely re-arrange plug in order directly on the mixer. They did a nice job there. It's looks great too. Logic looks really dark now, and Cubase . . . well . . . it looks like cheap blue plastic.
True. And you have the option for narrow mixer configuration, which still clearly shows all the elements (the picture I posted was in narrow config)machinesworking wrote: I seem to recall that you can show/hide sends, solo/mute/record, FX etc. as well.
You can make the config whatever you want. You don't have to use those templates. You can make your own song templates, as well as mixer board layouts etc. Obviously, the bigger they are , the more memory they take on launch . . . just like any other DAW. Another nice feature is the ability to do multiple mixes within the same song. You just select the mix you want from a pull-down. Great for A/B mix comparisons. I agree with your statement . . . Logic and Cubase could both learn a few things from DP.machinesworking wrote: I wish Logic and SX would stop trying to rip each other off and take a hint from DP here.
The only downside to DPs mix implementation is pretty subtle really, you configure the size of your project based on a list of set ups, 24 stereo 24 mono, 8 stereo 8 mono, unlimited stereo etc., it must save some CPU juice is all I can figure? though you can change it later if the song grows too big for the set up you chose.
seeya,
Jon
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Admittedly I don't know anything about DP (seems as if just nobody is using it over here), but that mixer thing alone would justify your statement.jon9091 wrote: Logic and Cubase could both learn a few things from DP.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 8036 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
Well I came from DP, and Logic beats DP AFA MIDI goes, Logic beats all of them with MIDI though. Just for the fact that you ca recreate your entire hardware studio in the Environment and save patches that way if you so desired.ttoz wrote:wait till you see dp's midi.that's all i'll say on the subject
SX and DP are similar in my mind, as far as MIDI goes, they take the hard labor out of it and offer things a little less in raw form than Logic does MIDI wise, but in the end Logic does more if you desire it to. DP has really good MIDI, but they tend to beta test with MOTU hardware, so in a sense they can behave a bit like a mini version of Pro Tools that way. DP is fantastic with MOTU hardware, and not as good as SX or Logic with third party hardware. I could never get DP to transmit beat clock through a Midisport, though both SX and Logic could, the MOTU tech couldn't get DP to do it either, but on a MOTU MIDI box it could......
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 8036 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
This is the other weird DP thing, Logic has the Environment and the Track mixer, basically two ways to look at mixers.ttoz wrote:i am talking about the midi gui. I found it impossibly unintuitive. i remember in the main arrange page there was no zoom on individual midi parts! that WAS version 3 though..maybe times have changed
Most DAWs have an Arrange page and a piano roll style editor for MIDI stuff. DP has TWO ways to view tracks in an Arrange page style. One has NO ZOOM, just a straight track list, the other allows you to zoom in to the piano roll level, shows the automation and audio files etc... Then of course there is a piano roll editor.
They all have their quirks, but you just didn't get into DP far enough ttoz, a lot of DP guys brag about how DP is the perfect balance between SX and Logic with MIDI, and in some ways they are right.
Just to be fair, I never felt that DP handled virtual instruments that well, SX and Logic are much more in tune with that IMO. MAS FX are ridiculously overpriced as well, it's great the that DP adopted AU for sure!
All this kind of makes me wish I had stuck with DP though, the desire for a decent VST host pushed me away from DP, plus Logic was so damned stable at 4.73, ( I didn't suffer through 4.0! )
Anyway if you play with all of them for a while you get an idea of where the strengths of each are. DPs strengths are track count, mixing interface, and MIDI.
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 24 Feb, 2004
STOP ARGUING ABOUT YOUR SEQUENCER "MINE IS BETTER..." NO! ITS MINE...."
A SEQUENCER IS GOOD FOR THE ONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE IT AND LIKE TO USE IT... MOST IMPORTANT IS WHAT COMES OUT FROM IT....YOUR CREATIVITY, THATS ALL, PERSONNALLY, IM PRO LOGIC, BUT KNOW MUSICIANS (VERY GOOD ONES) THAT WORK ON CUBASE VST AND, SOUSDNS GREAT....
A SEQUENCER IS GOOD FOR THE ONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE IT AND LIKE TO USE IT... MOST IMPORTANT IS WHAT COMES OUT FROM IT....YOUR CREATIVITY, THATS ALL, PERSONNALLY, IM PRO LOGIC, BUT KNOW MUSICIANS (VERY GOOD ONES) THAT WORK ON CUBASE VST AND, SOUSDNS GREAT....
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- KVRian
- 980 posts since 25 Feb, 2003
?????????????
