ArtsAcoustic VS Lexicon 960 (or any lexi hardware) :)

[kritikon]

I think Lexicon should get a clue and start offering their technology in a decent, affordable plugin. They would sell such massive quantities, their $65,000 hardware units would fall behind in comparison.

It'd be nice to think so, but the likelihood is that, if Lexicon ever released anything native, it would be the number 1 crack target. They'd have to charge huge amounts to gain any profit.
Similar to Waves stuff I would imagine - they've got into a catch22 - started off expensive and "must-have", got cracked and everybody uses the cracks, so they have to maintain high charges to get anything out of their sales - I dunno what their sales figures are, but I bet they don't sell that many.

With Lexicon - there's a huge demand for a native plugin - it'd be cracked almost at once. The vast majority unfortunately would use cracks....has anybody here actually met anyone who bought Waves plugins?
I did...he had a rich father who bought him unlimited gear and s/w...His dad just bought everything that he thought was the best and most expensive for him (lucky baaaaaaaaastard - still...we blagged a shitload of studio time from him to "teach" him how to use all his gear...hehehe...) Everyone else I've ever come across in person who uses/used Waves had cracks. And that includes some people who could afford to buy them too. I've been in more than one commercial setup that used cracks of Waves. And I think Waves would be minor compared to Lexicon if they truly entered the s/w market. Sad innit?

Eventide, Lexicon, TC ...can't blame them for trying to hold onto some business security - it's taken them (the first two at least) alot of years to gain the business and build up the product. It doesn't matter at what price they release a native plugin - could be $30 or $3000 - it'd still be cracked and circulated the next day.

Shame...I thought Eventide would have maybe entered into the DSP card market by now. Used to get a cut-down reverb on Soundscape systems (not sure if it's still available). They could charge decent money too. A full set of room, hall, and plate algorithms on something like a UAD - they could charge $1000 and I'd bite their ****ing hands off to get one. That would be the absolute one definite thing that would get me off my arse to buy a DSP card...probably many others too.

[omo]

kritikon, Itotally disagree.

First of all it is perfectly possible to create practicly uncrackable copy protection. But only if they wanted...

The thing is that software companies do not have that expertise in the field just yet. But they're pushing and one day when they're ready to beat Lexicon... on the day Lexicon will shift their priorities more towards software because it'll be the only chance to survive.

For now it is the above and also LIABILITIES. There's a huge chain in hardware FX units production - from steel industry to chip makers. And they all in the game.

[jmh]

First of all it is perfectly possible to create practicly uncrackable copy protection. But only if they wanted...

Rrright... take hardware dongles and dedicated dsp out of the equation, and enlighten us with the uncrackable protection. Better yet, make it a business - the software industry is desperate for such a protection.

Similar to Waves stuff I would imagine - they've got into a catch22 - started off expensive and "must-have", got cracked and everybody uses the cracks, so they have to maintain high charges to get anything out of their sales - I dunno what their sales figures are, but I bet they don't sell that many.

Actually they maintain the ludicrous prices because that's what the high end market is willing to pay - and mislead to believe is a requirement before a product is suitable for high end Catch22 though, with that I agree.

People from companies such as TC have stated it several times, native processing isn't a viable business for them because of piracy. Why they - excluding TC obviously - don't go the dsp card way is beyond me. TC is doing great with PowerCore - which I'm using as an example because it's open to third parties.

Lexicon tried this market ages ago actually. The market wasn't prepared for it back then, I assume. But today... if I had a choice between similarly priced, roughly equally powered cards from Eventide and Lexicon to choose from besides UAD and PowerCore... my head just might explode =)

Regards,

JMH

[kritikon]

Yes...what jmh said - what uncrackable s/w? We all know SX3 has been cracked, and that's with a dongle. PACE s/w has been cracked and no doubt will continue to be. I don't mind having one dongle for my host, but I'd be reluctant to go the route of multiple dongles for different developers...you only have to read the dislike of dongles at this forum to know that Lexicon etc might suffer if they went that route. But I have every sympathy with them for not going native - it's asking for failure.

Lexicon tried this market ages ago actually. The market wasn't prepared for it back then, I assume. But today... if I had a choice between similarly priced, roughly equally powered cards from Eventide and Lexicon to choose from besides UAD and PowerCore... my head just might explode =)

Yeah, it's a shame that died a death. When I bought my Aardvark card, I was a hair breadth away from buying one of those Lexicon CORE32 cards - DBX s/w limiters on all inputs and 2 MPX processors. My thoughts at the time were that if it took off, then Lexicon would advance it to include PCM algorithms later on. But there were already mutterings about it being discontinued and I'm pleased I didn't buy one - from what I remember they were still on drivers for Win2000 only...could be wrong, but I don't think they ever got around to writing WinXP drivers, so it would now be redundant. (Having said that, my bleeding Aardvark is redundant next time Microsoft has a new OS )

Maybe one day - Lexicon already have the R&D...so do Eventide. Hopefully it's only a matter of time...although I really don't think either of them are in a hurry to go that route fully. A fully loaded up Lexicon DSP card, or even a UAD with the basic PCM algos would be a sweet thing. Somehow I see Eventide even less likely to go the DSP card route - they're neatly entrenched right at the top end in h/w, and to any studio with money it really doesn't matter whether the goods are in s/w or h/w - as long as they produce the goods - which Eventide patently do.

At least for me, the upside is that Steinberg are now on the route to firm integration of h/w with their host - it only remains to be seen whether Yamaha dictate they favour Yamaha h/w and make it difficult for other h/w. Because to be quite honest - I don't mind going back to buying h/w and spending more money if it means I can use it with quality results and seamless integration with my PC. The day is not too far off where it will be perfectly viable to have a multi-in/out card with multiple digital connections for h/w and negate even the need for a mixer.
Shit...who knows? Maybe one day I'll be able to integrate something like a full Eventide modular unit into a fully modular s/w FX suite. Dream on, but you never know

[AndrewSimon]

The recent success of DSP cards (UAD sold more then 30,000 cards)is not going unnoticed in the pro audio world.
I am sure we will see this segment grow like crazy.
I just hope they will license algorithms to each other so we won't end up with two dozen different DSP cards.
The new emerging high bandwidth PCI slots (not the PCI-x, the one that's 10 time faster) will set this market on fire.

[kritikon]

30,000 units?

I didn't know they were that popular. Hmmmm....there's hope yet maybe.

[DevonB]

The new emerging high bandwidth PCI slots (not the PCI-x, the one that's 10 time faster) will set this market on fire.

PCI-X is actually 8 times faster. 133Mhz and 64 bit vs 33mhz and 32 bit for your desktop PC slots. You're thinking PCIe (Express) cards. One lane is theoretical 2.5 gigabits per second. Remember, that's bits not bytes too. A 16x card would be faster though, with a max 4 gigabytes per second, but what I just read, Intel is throttling the bandwidth back on their boards.

Devon

[greendoor]

There is a very simple solution to this software piracy thing. Software, protected by a dongle, is eventually always crackable, and challenge/response is a clear signal to people like myself to AVOID purchasing. Hardware, with the code in ROM, is the best way to slow down piracy. That hardware could be packaged in very cheap formats - I would propose a USB or Firewire plastic box that is bus powered. We don't need bulky racks with power supplies and a/d/a converters. We just need a box we can buy/sell that plugs in and appears in our plugin lists and gives us a Lexicon 480, or Roland D50, or whatever. The market for these toys could be as huge as the guitar stompbox market. Keep it simple, beta-test them first, and don't force us to piss around with passwords and challenge/respondse. HARDWARE that either works or it doesn't. HARDWARE that we can't copy (but we could sell). I for one am completely dongled out - and I'm also sick of maintaining and upgrading plugins. Get it right, package it right, I just want stuff that works that isn't a frikken liability.

[kritikon]

The idea's OK, but you'd soon have black boxes sticking out of your USB hub like a porcupine - and I've not heard too many good things about USB hubs with audio.

It wouldn't take long to run out of space - 1 reverb (maybe 2 for different flavours), a decent Eq, several compressors...god forbid if they started putting synths inside USB boxes - I'd need a hub with around 15 slots, minimum.

[greendoor]

USB can support 127 devices I think - and i am totally NOT suggesting that audio streams over USB. What I have in mind could work with USB1. How? Well the product would still be a VST plugin. It would have a .dll in your VST plugin folder. So the processing would still be native - i'm talking about CHEAP products here. The .dll would make a call to USB device for the essential code that is stored in ROM, rendering the plugin uncopy-able. This is different from a dongle, which simply authorises the plugin to work. Those can be cracked, because the essential code is in the VST .dll. With something like a Roland D50 or digital piano, those things use tiny amounts of ROM samples. A few meg - maybe 64 meg for their high end pianos - easy for USB1. Vendors like Roland, Korg, Lexicon could easily sell their products as native VST - but people would disassemble the code and steal any samples. My idea would keep these in a cheap plastic USB 'dongle', so they would be as safe as hardware. I think it could work, and I would buy them by the truckload if they existed.

[jmh]

You know... people are already complaining if they have to use two USB dongles along a USB mouse and a USB keyboard

And no, that wouldn't really work as a copy protection. Even with high level of encryption. As long as the USB thingamajig communicates with the computer, someone will be able to intercept the traffic. Coaxing out the data the USB device sends to the computer would be only a matter of time then. And unless the hardware inside the USB device is rather special, someone with the skills (and there are a lot of nerds into these sort of things) would open the box, get the data dumped and help assisting a software-only cracked version becoming reality... or even whip up the schematics for building a clone and providing the ROM contained in the USB device.

Of course this is getting rather hitech, but take a look at the various console hacking sites Similar stuff has been done with cellphones as well in the past - there really are folks out there with the required skills and enough spare time to tackle of project of this kind.

Regards,

JMH

[bmanic]

Agreed with jmh (no, I'm not in bed.. could not sleep, got up for a sandwhich!). In the end I think fighting piracy with pure common sense is the best way. Lowering the prices enough for even kids/students to be able to purchase some stuff and trusting the adult users to do the right thing, to buy the software.

- bManic

[Frippertronix]

I think Lexicon should get a clue and start offering their technology in a decent, affordable plugin. They would sell such massive quantities, their $65,000 hardware units would fall behind in comparison.

Shame...I thought Eventide would have maybe entered into the DSP card market by now. Used to get a cut-down reverb on Soundscape systems (not sure if it's still available). They could charge decent money too. A full set of room, hall, and plate algorithms on something like a UAD - they could charge $1000 and I'd bite their ****ing hands off to get one. That would be the absolute one definite thing that would get me off my arse to buy a DSP card...probably many others too.

A card would be a nice alternative with Lexicon or Eventide. With an affordable card and plugs by Lexicon in their own format, they would sell a lot, maybe also if they got some thrid party to develop a broad range, like on the UAD.

[greendoor]

Ooops - I got a bit off topic. The cool thing, is that companies like AAR are giving us reverb that seriously competes head on with Eventide, Lexicon, TC - at realistic prices and reasonable copy protection and a degree of trust. I was comparing reverbs on a snare sample last night - I have the demo of Princeton and R66, but I found exactly the sound I wanted in AAR. (It wasn't a snare preset either). With some serious hi damping and eq, I can make AAR just as warm and dark as the Princeton, but with a smooth tail. R66 is hard to use, but it seems possible to get some great sounds that also compete with hardware. So I don't think it matters that the old reverb companies are slow off the mark. Who really needs them?

[Frippertronix]

Ooops - I got a bit off topic. The cool thing, is that companies like AAR are giving us reverb that seriously competes head on with Eventide, Lexicon, TC - at realistic prices and reasonable copy protection and a degree of trust. I was comparing reverbs on a snare sample last night - I have the demo of Princeton and R66, but I found exactly the sound I wanted in AAR. (It wasn't a snare preset either). With some serious hi damping and eq, I can make AAR just as warm and dark as the Princeton, but with a smooth tail. R66 is hard to use, but it seems possible to get some great sounds that also compete with hardware. So I don't think it matters that the old reverb companies are slow off the mark. Who really needs them?

There's always convolution, too. I was comparing the brass hall presets in the AAR demo with the proprietary convolution engine and a Cyber Kitchen hall in GS3 last night and I really preferred the convolution. Sounded much less synthetic.