Ooh, I like This Modular Rack...

[foosnark]

Is there a better choice for a through zero/FM/PM oscillator?

I've heard that one can be a little hard to work with compared to some. I would go for one of the newer ones that uses the SSI2130:

Cosmotronic Vortex (but it's a dual/complex oscillator with two separate wavefolders and two LPFs, and is not cheap)
Patching Panda Operat
Worng Acronym
Shakmat Banshee Reach
NLC FM Op
Befaco Pony

There are probably some others I'm not remembering. To me Operat is the most promising of those, with the ability to control the mix levels of different shapes with sliders or CV (self-patching to get different shapes seems like it could be fun), but it depends on what set of features you're interested in... there's a pretty wide range there.

[ghettosynth]

Is there a better choice for a through zero/FM/PM oscillator?

I've heard that one can be a little hard to work with compared to some. I would go for one of the newer ones that uses the SSI2130:

Cosmotronic Vortex (but it's a dual/complex oscillator with two separate wavefolders and two LPFs, and is not cheap)
Patching Panda Operat
Worng Acronym
Shakmat Banshee Reach
NLC FM Op
Befaco Pony

There are probably some others I'm not remembering. To me Operat is the most promising of those, with the ability to control the mix levels of different shapes with sliders or CV (self-patching to get different shapes seems like it could be fun), but it depends on what set of features you're interested in... there's a pretty wide range there.

Hard to work with because of the odd/even vs traditional waveforms? Just to help narrow the field, no standard linear FM with DC/AC switching is an automatic deal breaker for me. I already have west-cost-ish VCOs that don't have DC coupled FM as an option. Also, doubles are out, I'm just looking for one flexible and interesting oscillator.

[whyterabbyt]

What should I do with the remaining 10hp?

effects?

FXAid XL is 6HP. You could even double up to a Disting EX.

[Stefken]

What should I do with the remaining 10hp?

effects?

FXAid XL is 6HP.

And the Joranalogue Fold 6 is 4 HP.

[Stefken]

I ve been looking a bit into sequencers with a decent form factor.
I d like some versatility, quantization and knobs that are big enough to handle without tweezers.

The Behringer 960 is too big. The Behringer 182 has tiny pots that are way to sensitive.
The Behringer 1027 has a decent form factor but is not so versatile.
The Tiptop/Buchla 245t is also a nice form factor but also not so versatile (locked in to 5 steps, so you can not double up rows for note sequences, right? )

The Ladik S-316 seems pretty nice. Haven t looked into it much yet. For what i can see, you can not divide the 16 steps down to two 8 steps sequences.

The number of steps is either too small or too big .

The Ladik S-183 seems nice too, but seems to work in tandem with other modules.
This looks like the best option i have find yet.
Is Ladik any good? Have not heard much about it.

The Erica Synths Black sequencer is nice but also a lot of HP in the end, and high price.

300 euro is like my barrier. Anything above ~300 ish really needs to be f**king good to make it into my rack.
(I will probably get a Hector at 600 euro but it replaces a bunch of stuff, so in that respect it is good bang for the buck)

Any thoughts / suggestions?

[vurt]

how many steps you need? what hp max is ok? outputs?

[Stefken]

how many steps you need? what hp max is ok? outputs?

Something along these lines would be interesting.
e.g. 2 sequences of 8 steps that could be used as e.g.
* 1 sequence of 8 and one reduced sequence of 5 for example for some polymeter
* 1 sequence of 8 steps for notes and 1 sequence of 8 steps for modulation
* 1 sequence of 16 steps

I wouldn t mind a third row of 8 steps but 2 would be fine.

HP is not an absolute number. But you could take Qu-bit Bloom (16 HP) as a reference.
Bloom is not bad (I forgot to mention it) but people don t seem to like the mutations that come out.
It is a good reference though, as it is versatile, decent knobs, up to 32 steps,...
It just doesn t get me wild like ?

Something like the Behringer 1027 (which is 32HP) could be an option, provided that it is the thing i really want.

[foosnark]

Hard to work with because of the odd/even vs traditional waveforms?

There's basically two kinds of TZFM with analog. The 2130 I was talking about is more like with a digital oscillator or phase modulation or non-TZFM in terms of usage... just get the frequency ratios lined up (which is easy to do by ear) and it's all good.

Then there's the style on Generate 3, Neoni, Doepfer A-110-4 and maybe some others. When you use TZFM on those, the frequency of the modulation input takes over, and the "frequency" knobs on the carrier become more of a timbre control (depth but with a different harmonic structure). There's no way to have different FM ratios the way other FM does, which is the biggest downside to me. It acts more like a waveshaper than typical FM. It also sounds a bit weird/rough to me, not necessarily in a bad way.

Instruo Neoni is in VCV Rack. There's a "Trad/TZ" switch that flips between regular linear FM and TZFM. Frankly I think it sounds better with regular FM most of the time.

But with the 2130 you don't need that switch because it just behaves normally... there would be no advantage to disabling TZFM on it.

Also, what the 2130 calls "PM" is not phase modulation at all, it's just AC-coupling the TZFM input -- mathematically the same if you use audio rate sines, but different with other shapes. On Operat for instance, there's a TZFM/PM switch and it's literally just DC/AC.

(Though on Vortex, the PM is done with the tri-to-sine waveshaper instead, the same way Happy Nerding FM Aid works.)

[vurt]

how many steps you need? what hp max is ok? outputs?

Something along these lines would be interesting.
e.g. 2 sequences of 8 steps that could be used as e.g.
* 1 sequence of 8 and one reduced sequence of 5 for example for some polymeter
* 1 sequence of 8 steps for notes and 1 sequence of 8 steps for modulation
* 1 sequence of 16 steps

I wouldn t mind a third row of 8 steps but 2 would be fine.

HP is not an absolute number. But you could take Qu-bit Bloom (16 HP) as a reference.
Bloom is not bad (I forgot to mention it) but people don t seem to like the mutations that come out.
It is a good reference though, as it is versatile, decent knobs, up to 32 steps,...
It just doesn t get me wild like ?

Something like the Behringer 1027 (which is 32HP) could be an option, provided that it is the thing i really want.

well i won't suggest bloom then
although i did like the look of it, and like qubit modules, i just have several sequencers already.

would something desktop be ok? something like the beatstep?

[ghettosynth]

I ve been looking a bit into sequencers with a decent form factor.
I d like some versatility, quantization and knobs that are big enough to handle without tweezers.

The Behringer 960 is too big. The Behringer 182 has tiny pots that are way to sensitive.
The Behringer 1027 has a decent form factor but is not so versatile.
The Tiptop/Buchla 245t is also a nice form factor but also not so versatile (locked in to 5 steps, so you can not double up rows for note sequences, right? )

The Ladik S-316 seems pretty nice. Haven t looked into it much yet. For what i can see, you can not divide the 16 steps down to two 8 steps sequences.

The number of steps is either too small or too big .

The Ladik S-183 seems nice too, but seems to work in tandem with other modules.
This looks like the best option i have find yet.
Is Ladik any good? Have not heard much about it.

The Erica Synths Black sequencer is nice but also a lot of HP in the end, and high price.

300 euro is like my barrier. Anything above ~300 ish really needs to be f**king good to make it into my rack.
(I will probably get a Hector at 600 euro but it replaces a bunch of stuff, so in that respect it is good bang for the buck)

Any thoughts / suggestions?

The pots on the Ladik look small to me, too small for my taste. It's cheap, it's got that going for it. It is really REALLY hard to compete with the Behringer sequencers on value. I get a lot of use out of my 1027 and my 960. But then, I don't give a f**k about HP, I'll just add more racks if I need more HP. I wouldn't buy the 182 though, the Behringer trim pots are terrible. I'm going to re-order the 100 series mixer when they're back in stock to play with adding knobs to it or maybe even swapping out the trim-pots. The experiment is worth $50, but not $120.

The Doepfer A-155 looks great, especially with the controller which gives you more flexibility, but then they're over $500 together and also a lot of HP.

I would say that a B.ARP 1027 + Clavis MixSwitch is the combo to beat in terms of value/features. What else can you get for $250 that gives you more than that in fewer HP?

Value/Price aside, have you considered Make Noise Rene? I'm not ready to drop $500, but it might be worth it, either that or the 0-ctrl. Also the Tip-Top Z8000 might be worth a look at $365?

[vurt]

0ctrl doesn't do 5/8 but does have note length which is fun!
rene2 will though im sure, among many other really cool tricks.

[ghettosynth]

0ctrl doesn't do 5/8
rene2 will though im sure, among many other really cool tricks.

You mean at the same time, right? I get that, I don't think that you're going to find that easily in one sequencer, especially at low cost. You will most likely need to step up to something that's microprocessor controlled. In essence, that behavior is really two sequencers in one. You can get that fairly easily at low cost if you forgo knobs, e.g., the Division 6 dual sequencer, but knobs mean that you have actual gates driving the steps, or, that you are reading the knobs via A2D.

So, this then comes down to why you want that behavior and how you plan to interact with the sequencers. If you want the polyrhythmic effects while you twist knobs, then you're going to have to pay the man.

BTW: Do you have one of these? Seems right up your alley!

[vurt]

i know this, hence i have several sequencers

as i said though, rene2 will do it, but as you say, not on the cheap.

no, i don't know that one? what is it?

[vurt]

ah, lego. nice.

[ghettosynth]

In fact, if you look at Perfect Circuit and you limit yourself to < $400, you will find very little in terms of flexible knob based sequencers to begin with. There are some standouts, the Befaco Muxslicer at $229 fits 8 steps in 16HP with individual gate outs as well as an end of count out. It gives you bi-directional muxing as well. A 1027 + powered 84HP rack costs less than most sequencers with knobs.