FXpansion releases Cypher2

[pdxindy]

I'm not finding it particularly easy to understand what is going on in a patch. Cypher lives up to its name!

Ok. So you would like to inspect existing sounds and see how they are made, right? I'm asking since would there be a need to inspect how a patch you just edited is made? Probably not, I'd guess.

Actually yes... if I made the preset yesterday, I may hardly remember it today... or a week from now. See, I think maybe you have a particular aptitude for remembering. Or you are just working with it so much that you do.

So if you want to inspect existing sounds there is a thought process involved. That is, we know what we want to inspect in the sound. Right? As an example, if I play a sound and hear that it has some cool LFO motion, I'd want to go and see what the LFO is doing. So I click on the LFO mod slot that is of the light grey (which means that it is assigned and doing something), and once selected I can see ALL that it is controlling. So easy.

No, it is not so easy. I don't know if that cool LFO motion is an LFO, or a looping Env, or a sequencer. Or a sequencer modulated by an LFO which is modulated by an Env.

But let's reverse it. I play a sound and see that the FM knobs have lots of visual cue. There is lots assigned to one FM knob. So I hover above it and see three Mod Slots light up. That means that there are three mod slots I need to inspect, but now that I know what they are, I know what modulation sources are modulating this FM knob. Again, so easy. It is.

Okay, I hover over the FM knob, see the 3 sources modulating it. Now I go look at Osc 2 which is the FM source, and hover over a couple parameters to see the sources modulating them which are affecting how the FM sounds... by now I've forgotten what the 3 sources were on the FM knob. In order to 'see' the patch, I have to remember all that stuff. That does not work well for me. I feel like the synth ends up taking too much focus. Some more visual cues would be helpful.

Each example shows everything instantly. But then, let's take a synth with 5 (that's five) Mod matrix tabs ( I won't name names). It will take forever (compared to the TransMod) to see what's what.
A mod matrix is good if it's one tab, other than that its not good. But with one tab, we can't do much as we are limited to simple mod assignments. Not nice! Then, the Mod Matrix completely fails at the main attraction of the TransMod: select a mod source and literally paint modulation across all the knobs you see on the GUI!
This really needs to be shown in a video how a sound can be edited in a few seconds with the TransMod and how sloooow it takes with the ModMatrix.

So that antiquated, archaic mod matrix is good if it is one tab... okay

What you are describing is the perfect sound designer... who knows what they want at all times and remembers every connection. That person can quickly select a few slots and dial in dozens of target in seconds done!! I'm not that as I'm often going back and forth, tweaking the relationship between different modulators... that means many trips up to the Transmod slots to keep switching from one source to another to be able to tweak related modulations.

Another example, I have an envelope modulating an LFO... The relationship between the two makes a big difference in the result. I cannot adjust the modulation of each of them next to each other... again having to go to the transmod slots to change the source so I can edit it.

You know, as we talk about this... I might like to be able to select a knob and paint all the sources... inverse transmod... then I could edit the 3-5 sources modulating a particular parameter all at the same time...

Bitwig can display its modulation list by targets... so you see Filter Cutoff and everything modulating it and they can all be tweaked right there in relation to each other.

Btw... I was trying a few presets with Lift using the Linnstrument... and there it is not necessary to push down into the AT to get a fast velocity release. I can play a note very softly and still get a fast release velocity.

[Stefken]

Generally speaking towards user friendliness, this is a given:

* A power user using the system day in and day out for an extended period of time is no good reference. As you can pretty much get used to any system, given enough time and practice. (Like eating with wooden sticks for example)

* When (enough) users complain about a certain implementation, there is an issue. A UI should be as transparent and intuitive as possible. When a system seems too complicated to get to know in a decent amount of time, there is an issue. Because basically, the user is always right.

[himalaya]

Generally speaking towards user friendliness, this is a given:

* A power user using the system day in and day out for an extended period of time is no good reference. As you can pretty much get used to any system, given enough time and practice. (Like eating with wooden sticks for example)

Good point, one which I fully understand.

It reminds me of the time when I first came across Cypher back in 2009. What I did find overwhelming was the sea of knobs and buttons everywhere. This, I had to spend time with, in order to understand all the options, since there are so many of them (dual hard-sync, triple poly ring-mods, etc). It was the initial contact with a complex looking GUI. Complex, since there is so much stuff packed into that one window. But it's not complex in terms of what is offered, what I mean is, it's all traditional stuff, oscillators, filters, LFOs, no fancy stuff like resynthesis, additive, wavetable, or whatever that would require deeper synthesis knowledge and familiarity with some new, advanced options. So, it was this 'visual' complexity that I had to get used to. But the plus side is that, since Cypher1 was a one-page-design, once I did familiarise myself with all the little buttons and double functions, the workflow became very fast.

However, in contrast, I somehow clicked with the TransMod from the start. It seemed so natural to me, and I was flying. I do understand that it's not for everyone, but I also see that some people 'project' issues onto that TransMod system that aren't there. What I'm saying is, there are many 'what if' questions which in practice disappear. You would really struggle with a mod matrix spread across several tabs (some have 5 tabs!) and would spend much more time looking at how a patch is made...

* When (enough) users complain about a certain implementation, there is an issue. A UI should be as transparent and intuitive as possible. When a system seems too complicated to get to know in a decent amount of time, there is an issue. Because basically, the user is always right.

I'm only seeing a few (loud voices) here. And the main issue some are finding is not with making sounds with the TransMod but deciphering how a patch is made. And as much as I believe a patch can be deconstructed with the current implementation of the TransMod, I did make a feature request along time ago for an easy overview of all modulation. So, I do see that it would help. No argument with the basic premise here. However, like I keep saying, just use those mod slots...hover above them and see what is happening. Or hover on a knob, and see what is controlling it. This interaction is so simple. Just hover and see.

[himalaya]

Actually yes... if I made the preset yesterday, I may hardly remember it today... or a week from now. See, I think maybe you have a particular aptitude for remembering. Or you are just working with it so much that you do.

Nope.

I just make a sound and move on.

But, in all seriousness, If I then have to inspect a patch I hover above the mod slots and see what's what. Takes seconds to do.
In fact, we have to inspect patches which are submitted and it really is VERY easy to see what is going on. I read your comments, and can not help but think a lot of this is imagined. It's the 'what if' type of questions. In practice, it's much simpler. Just get stuck in and make some sounds.

So if you want to inspect existing sounds there is a thought process involved. That is, we know what we want to inspect in the sound. Right? As an example, if I play a sound and hear that it has some cool LFO motion, I'd want to go and see what the LFO is doing. So I click on the LFO mod slot that is of the light grey (which means that it is assigned and doing something), and once selected I can see ALL that it is controlling. So easy.

No, it is not so easy. I don't know if that cool LFO motion is an LFO, or a looping Env, or a sequencer. Or a sequencer modulated by an LFO which is modulated by an Env.

Ok, so our patch has an LFO, a Sequencer, looped envelopes, etc... If that's what we have in the patch, we can still quickly find what's happening.


Method 1: look at the TransMod mod windows at the top. There you will see the LFO, the Sequencer mod source, the Envelope mod source. If they are assigned they will all have a different colour. Now, hover above each one and see what they are modulating. Job done. Takes a few seconds.

Method 2. Since our patch is modulated by so many mod sources, the GUI will show a lot of visual cue that this is so. Each knob and fader has real-time visual feedback. So play a note/chord observe the GUI. See the cutoff knob 'dancing' that means it has stuff assigned to it. If it's moving while you are playing that means it's one of the 'motion' modulators (LFOs, sequencers, looped envs, looped ramps). So hover above the cutoff knob. Do you see mod sources light up? Say you get the LFO and a looped envelope, but no Sequencer. So this means that the LFO and the looped envelope are modulating the cutoff. So now you know what the mod source is. Again, it takes a few seconds, or even less. It takes soo long to explain it and seconds to perform in practice.

But let's reverse it. I play a sound and see that the FM knobs have lots of visual cue. There is lots assigned to one FM knob. So I hover above it and see three Mod Slots light up. That means that there are three mod slots I need to inspect, but now that I know what they are, I know what modulation sources are modulating this FM knob. Again, so easy. It is.

Okay, I hover over the FM knob, see the 3 sources modulating it. Now I go look at Osc 2 which is the FM source, and hover over a couple parameters to see the sources modulating them which are affecting how the FM sounds... by now I've forgotten what the 3 sources were on the FM knob. In order to 'see' the patch, I have to remember all that stuff. That does not work well for me. I feel like the synth ends up taking too much focus. Some more visual cues would be helpful.

But you don't have to remember anything. Simply hover on the first FM knob once more and see again what is modulating it. Remember that multi-tab Mod Matrix, you'd need to flip tabs to do the same, and such a mod matrix would not allow you to "see" the patch at a glance. And I won't mention synths that use a ModMatrix in conjunction with a secondary mod system...

So that antiquated, archaic mod matrix is good if it is one tab... okay

Wait!
It's ok in the context I mentioned, which is that of seeing all the mod assignments in one view in a ONE-tab ModMatrix. Then a mod matrix is ok. But It still is not 'ok' in the larger context that I keep mentioning in this conversation, which is the actual sound design process. See my comments a few posts back. It's all explained. It would be a different matter if the 'mod matrix' or a mod panel would 'follow' your edits, like it happens in Alchemy. Then, the workflow is much more smooth, easy and gives fast results. Then, we are talking about a smart design that moves forward and is not stuck in something that was designed for hardware synths in the 80s....

What you are describing is the perfect sound designer... who knows what they want at all times and remembers every connection.

Not at all! but thank you for suggesting that I am a perfect sound designer (I jest! )

The beauty of a system like TransMod is that you can be free and apply modulation in an intuitive manner. Select a mod source and apply modulation to literally every parameter you see on the GUI. We don't have to even think about what we are doing, just go crazy with applying modulation and see what happens!

We don't have to leave this 'space' and enter a new 'mod matrix' box. The process of tweaking a parameter and applying modulation is one and the same.

And importantly, it all takes no time whatsoever. Click on 'velocity' and as you play the note, start applying mod to various knobs, be free and experiment. In a couple of seconds you get a dynamic sound, and because you were free to apply this mod anywhere and everywhere, the end result may be not what you would have arrived with a ModMatrix, it could lead to much nicer, more complex sounds.

You know, as we talk about this... I might like to be able to select a knob and paint all the sources... inverse transmod... then I could edit the 3-5 sources modulating a particular parameter all at the same time...

Absolutely. A great idea. Like I mentioned a few posts back, none of these systems is perfect, not even TransMod. I'm not here to preach its ultimate superiority, that would be foolish. It can be improved, definitely, like I have mentioned. But the current benefit of the TransMod as it is far outweighs a ModMatrix design, in my view (I have to add that it's my personal view, otherwise I'll be eaten alive by some others for not stating that, haha! ). Just get stuck in and make some sounds.

Btw... I was trying a few presets with Lift using the Linnstrument... and there it is not necessary to push down into the AT to get a fast velocity release. I can play a note very softly and still get a fast release velocity.

You can do that too on the RISE. If you make a preset, from teh init patch, where all the curves are linear, then LIFT will be available on the soft touch as well.

[Echoes in the Attic]

The perfect system seems like it would be one that let you see all targets affected by a mod source or all mod sources affecting a target. Bitwig does this as mentioned. So maybe cypher could get a tab up top that replaces the transmod area where you can see all modulators when you click a parameter along with their mod amounts,which can be adjusted there. Or a mod matrix where the targets are automatically sorted alphabetically or something, or in order that they were assigned.

[Stefken]

The perfect system seems like it would be one that let you see all targets affected by a mod source or all mod sources affecting a target. Bitwig does this as mentioned. So maybe cypher could get a tab up top that replaces the transmod area where you can see all modulators when you click a parameter along with their mod amounts,which can be adjusted there. Or a mod matrix where the targets are automatically sorted alphabetically or something, or in order that they were assigned.

+1

[pdxindy]

But, in all seriousness, If I then have to inspect a patch I hover above the mod slots and see what's what. Takes seconds to do.
In fact, we have to inspect patches which are submitted and it really is VERY easy to see what is going on. I read your comments, and can not help but think a lot of this is imagined. It's the 'what if' type of questions. In practice, it's much simpler. Just get stuck in and make some sounds.

I read your comments and it makes me think you have a hard time understanding that other people think and work differently... which leaves you the only conclusion that I am somehow just imagining things... It is not a what-if question, I am giving my feedback, my empirical experience from using the GUI.

[himalaya]

I'd like to think that I can understand that others have different approaches. I've recognised that throughout my posts. I'd also hope that my participation here is seen as me nudging you onwards and simply saying: just start making sounds, the issues that you are outlining may not be as big or even relevant once you get into the swing of things. If these were so big, a bunch of us here would be screaming at the devs to improve things.

Your feedback is most appreciated and I hope that you don't mind our conversation, where I'm simply saying: dive in. It will be ok. You will swim.

[Stefken]

If these were so big, a bunch of us here would be screaming at the devs to improve things.

I also feel an approach of not wanting to understand the issues.
And that 'bunch of us', probably are people that all fall in the same category: pro sound designers who have been hired to make a soundset from scratch.

It's important to realise that people have different goals & processes towards an application.
You build your UI so that your different target personas are all accommodated.

For my way of working I prefer mod matrix and drag and drop.

[himalaya]

I can assure you that I do understand the issues that some are posting about. But sometimes when exposed to a new system, one that departs from a traditional and a familar method (say, the ModMatrix) tips, hints, and general clarification may be needed in order to help some users in the initial stages of using a system they haven't used before.

I've read some feedback which is plainly wrong like your feedback about the TransMod slots which you said do not have any visual cue when they are assigned. I replied to show you that there is visual feedback. see the image. So this is one such example where maybe a more experienced user can help those just starting out. That's all I'm hoping to achieve. Just help you make sounds!

Sometimes it is not easy to move away from an old way of working. We get used to one particular way (the ModMatrix) and it may be difficult to approach a new method. I understand that. It's a human trait. But despite the initial comments about this not being right, or that not being clear, once you start working proper, it all falls into place. You just need to do it.

[Stefken]

You are not listening.

[zvenx]

My two cents.....

Fxpansion have committed to Transmod for at least 9 years.
They love it.
Quite a few people love it too.
Quite a few don't.
They have invested too much time, passion and conviction in it to change paths.
I imagine they will indeed improve it, and try to make it more user friendly, but I am pretty sure getting a mod matrix option is not going to happen. I have tried and given up, so I just concentrate on how to better understand and use TransMod.

rsp

[Stefken]

My two cents.....

Fxpansion have committed to Transmod for at least 9 years.
They love it.
Quite a few people love it too.
Quite a few don't.
They have invested too much time, passion and conviction in it to change paths.
I imagine they will indeed improve it, and try to make it more user friendly, but I am pretty sure getting a mod matrix option is not going to happen. I have tried and given up, so I just concentrate on how to better understand and use TransMod.

rsp

The voice of reason .
Angus said as much, so that's what it will be. But a static listing of the modulations will already be helpfull.

[zvenx]

Lol. Or surrender


Rsp

My two cents.....

Fxpansion have committed to Transmod for at least 9 years.
They love it.
Quite a few people love it too.
Quite a few don't.
They have invested too much time, passion and conviction in it to change paths.
I imagine they will indeed improve it, and try to make it more user friendly, but I am pretty sure getting a mod matrix option is not going to happen. I have tried and given up, so I just concentrate on how to better understand and use TransMod.

rsp

The voice of reason .
Angus said as much, so that's what it will be. But a static listing of the modulations will already be helpfull.

[Angus_FX]

The perfect system seems like it would be one that let you see all targets affected by a mod source or all mod sources affecting a target.

We already have that visually, just not in a list form.

Would it be sufficient to put that list view in the visualiser screen, replacing the scope display if you hold down ALT when you mouse-over a control or mod source?