KVR Audio

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:08 pm

We will know how much value BW extracts from users looking at the value of a second hand license.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:17 pm

sacer wrote:If it would be my major DAW i would update, but i miss a lot features from ableton and don't think they will be implemented in one year, so i have no hope that in one year i am thinking i don't need the next years an other update. The os, controllers and other plugins also set new standards, conflicts etc thats why a daw should be keept up to date and if they are releasing new modules in the modulare architecture, than i might think to miss something out - it's slike a subscription trap.

I'm a Eurorack guy- meant to just buy a few, ended up with 3 grand of modules...and they keep making new ones I want- now that's a trap! On a serious note, as a Eurorack user the new modulation and native CV features make it a must have, I am pretty sure anyone in to modular will be having a long hard look at bigwig....

CTStump · Post by **CTStump** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:19 pm

SLiC wrote: I just went back through this and several other threads about the cost etc. The 'outcry' seems to be the same half a dozen people posting over and over (and over) again.

Is it? My veiw is it's more about the update issue in 12 month periods and whether paying for fixes beyond that.

169 bucks for an upgrade on the other hand is quite reasonable for any DAW that is full featured and useful. I think if bug fixes were separate from that and provided until the next full point upgrade free of charge this wouldn't be an issue at all in my opinion.

We can"t dismiss this discussion on cost, etc. Nor whether over half repondents are the same posters.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:31 pm

CTStump wrote:
SLiC wrote: I just went back through this and several other threads about the cost etc. The 'outcry' seems to be the same half a dozen people posting over and over (and over) again.
Is it? My veiw is it's more about the update issue in 12 month periods and whether paying for fixes beyond that.

169 bucks for an upgrade on the other hand is quite reasonable for any DAW that is full featured and useful. I think if bug fixes were separate from that and provided until the next full point upgrade free of charge this wouldn't be an isse at all in my opinion.

We can"t dismiss this discussion on cost, etc. Nor whether over half repondents are the same posters.

The poll on the bitwig forum (250 responded) only 20% said they definitely would not upgrade. I din t know what the normal upgrade rate is, but this seemed reasonable to me. But the I believed the Brexit and Trump polls...

I personally think the subscription model is a bit half-cock and expect clarification, lets face it, if they announce all version receive support/bug fixes (and I suspect they would have anyway) then it is just a normal upgrade but with a free year of major upgrades probably to avoid those pesky paid for 0.5 upgrades....as I said in an earlier post, I am a glass half full guy (apparently we get less stress and live longer

)

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:32 pm

CTStump wrote:
SLiC wrote: I just went back through this and several other threads about the cost etc. The 'outcry' seems to be the same half a dozen people posting over and over (and over) again.
Is it? My veiw is it's more about the update issue in 12 month periods and whether paying for fixes beyond that.

169 bucks for an upgrade on the other hand is quite reasonable for any DAW that is full featured and useful. I think if bug fixes were separate from that and provided until the next full point upgrade free of charge this wouldn't be an isse at all in my opinion.

We can"t dismiss this discussion on cost, etc. Nor whether over half repondents are the same posters.

That's my take on it CT, don't mind paying for the update at all, but the recurring yearly fee from a company that hasn't been exactly quick on releasing fixes is the issue. I don't see why they don't get that quite frankly. If they manage to release a major .5 in 12 months I will pay for that too if I like it.

I really like Bitwig and really want them to succeed btw.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:39 pm

woodsdenis wrote:
CTStump wrote:
SLiC wrote: I just went back through this and several other threads about the cost etc. The 'outcry' seems to be the same half a dozen people posting over and over (and over) again.
Is it? My veiw is it's more about the update issue in 12 month periods and whether paying for fixes beyond that.

169 bucks for an upgrade on the other hand is quite reasonable for any DAW that is full featured and useful. I think if bug fixes were separate from that and provided until the next full point upgrade free of charge this wouldn't be an isse at all in my opinion.

We can"t dismiss this discussion on cost, etc. Nor whether over half repondents are the same posters.
That's my take on it CT, don't mind paying for the update at all, but the recurring yearly fee from a company that hasn't been exactly quick on releasing fixes is the issue. I don't see why they don't get that quite frankly. If they manage to release a major .5 in 12 months I will pay for that too if I like it.

I really like Bitwig and really want them to succeed btw.

I think this is the issue. You are not tied in to a contact, no money will be taken from your account after a year, you choose just like any other upgrade....you can skip a year if you like then jump back in (as it says on the BW site)

I don't think we can assume that in a years time you will be left with some half finished buggy software and will have to keep paying to get it fixed (although some will argue this happened with Cubase 8.5

), Bitwigs current realise candidate is very stable for most (in fact I am, not seeing any complaints/bug reports) and the features are more than usable as they are, with V2, that may be all you ever need and it may be rock solid -you may never have to subscribe/update again!

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:15 pm

@SliC Unfortunately your support runs out after 12 months too, with Cubase versions can be released after the new full or . 5 is out as was the case with 8. Has Studio 1 had a 3.5 yet and that must be a couple of years old by now ? How many update since then ? Quite a lot I think.

We could go on and on with this, my view is that their new system is not well thought out and requires the customer to take a gamble. If they simply stated that the version you have would still get support ( within reason ) after the 12 months then that would satisfy most, they haven't said this so hence the issue. It is important of course to separate out people that complain about any price being charged, I am not one of those and as I have said before I have no issue with paying the upgrade price but the conditions attached are far too punitive and not well thought out IMHO of course.

Actually if the reason behind this was get cash in, a reasonable thing to do, then it will be counter productive. If it were a straight upgrade ala Steinberg I would go for it probably straight away. As it is I will definitely wait.

memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:18 pm

I hope this doesn't become a trend. I'd much rather see what's included in an update Before spending money on it.

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:33 pm

So what do you guys think abou the new features?

Numanoid wrote:According to the website, these are the major new things in v2
Devices and updates
-A new Modulation paradigm (24 new modulators)
-Polysynth (added OSC mix and filter waveshaping modes)
-Remote control (for every device)
-Dynamic displays everywhere
-Fades and crossfades
-VST3 support
-Smart tool switching and improved editor workflow
-Dashboard/Notfications/New Menu system

New Devices
-Spectrum analyzer
-Phaser
-Pitch Shifter
-Tree Monster (ring mod)
-Multi Note (Chorder)
-Note Harmonizer/Length/Echo/Latch/Velocity

Better Hardware integration
-MIDI CC
-MIDI Program Change
-MIDI Timecode
-HW Clock Out
-HW CV Instrument
-HW CV Out

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:36 pm

woodsdenis wrote:@SliC Unfortunately your support runs out after 12 months too, with Cubase versions can be released after the new full or . 5 is out as was the case with 8. Has Studio 1 had a 3.5 yet and that must be a couple of years old by now ? How many update since then ? Quite a lot I think.

We could go on and on with this, my view is that their new system is not well thought out and requires the customer to take a gamble. If they simply stated that the version you have would still get support ( within reason ) after the 12 months then that would satisfy most, they haven't said this so hence the issue. It is important of course to separate out people that complain about any price being charged, I am not one of those and as I have said before I have no issue with paying the upgrade price but the conditions attached are far too punitive and not well thought out IMHO of course.

Actually if the reason behind this was get cash in, a reasonable thing to do, then it will be counter productive. If it were a straight upgrade ala Steinberg I would go for it probably straight away. As it is I will definitely wait.

Bitwig have NEVER said that if you don't upgrade you wont get support, all it says is that when you subscribe you get 'priority email support'. They have also NEVER said there will be no bug fixes, just no free 'new features' unless you subscribe. It doesn't mention anything about what you wont get, that is all speculation.

This is the sum total of information anyone has: https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html

shonoob · Post by **shonoob** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:40 pm

memyselfandus wrote:I hope this doesn't become a trend. I'd much rather see what's included in an update Before spending money on it.

Exactly. Especially with Bitwig who has 0 track record (went 2 years basically adding 0 features to their DAW apart from Cowbell

) and have yet fulfilled any of their promises.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:46 pm

shonoob wrote:
memyselfandus wrote:I hope this doesn't become a trend. I'd much rather see what's included in an update Before spending money on it.
Exactly. Especially with Bitwig who has 0 track record (went 2 years basically adding 0 features to their DAW apart from Cowbell ) and have yet fulfilled any of their promises.

Here is what is included (2 threads above your post!) - upgrade or don't based on this alone for 160 buck, Simple. FYI- Bitwig have added more free features than any other DAW I have owned (Cubase, S1 and Live Suite) you could not be more wrong....for example:

https://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig_1up.html
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/ ... tudio-1-2/
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/ ... available/

Devices and updates for V2

-A new Modulation paradigm (24 new modulators)
-Polysynth (added OSC mix and filter waveshaping modes)
-Remote control (for every device)
-Dynamic displays everywhere
-Fades and crossfades
-VST3 support
-Smart tool switching and improved editor workflow
-Dashboard/Notfications/New Menu system

New Devices
-Spectrum analyzer
-Phaser
-Pitch Shifter
-Tree Monster (ring mod)
-Multi Note (Chorder)
-Note Harmonizer/Length/Echo/Latch/Velocity

Better Hardware integration
-MIDI CC
-MIDI Program Change
-MIDI Timecode
-HW Clock Out
-HW CV Instrument
-HW CV Out

Chapelle · Post by **Chapelle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:48 pm

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:50 pm

Chapelle wrote:
SLiC wrote:Bitwig have NEVER said that if you don't upgrade you wont get support, all it says is that when you subscribe you get 'priority email support'. They have also NEVER said there will be no bug fixes, just no free 'new features' unless you subscribe. It doesn't mention anything about what you wont get, that is all speculation.

This is the sum total of information anyone has: https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html
They have changed that. It used to say:
12 MONTHS OF FREE UPGRADES
Alongside the announcement of Bitwig Studio 2 we are also introducing a new license model.
Starting with the release of Bitwig Studio 2, you’ll get 12 months of free upgrades and updates with your purchase. This plan also includes email support.
See copy/paste from the site here: viewtopic.php?p=6674908#p6674908

There you go then, they listened (or it never meant to read that way) problem solved

memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:51 pm

You pay for 12 months. Once your 12 months is up you can't download updates. I can only assume this includes bug fixes since the bug fixes will be part of the updates.

If your 12 months is up you won't get any bug fixes (if needed) until you pay again.

Nice incentive to keep paying even if there are no new features you want or need.

Unless they plan on having separate installs for bug fixes only?

Edit

It's pretty clear

"The upgrade plan is only required if you want access to the latest version"

No bug fixes after your 12 months runs out. Unless you pay.

bitwig 2 is here