Upgrade FL or Buy energyXT?

[Hink]

I attribute the problems I reported to perhaps a cultural aspect of Belgium.

I can assure you that the fact that the (US based) distribution center of Guitar Center had the boxes on the shelves 2 weeks earlier than expected had little or nothing to do with cultural differences.

On the other hand the fact that customers feel the urge to look for another host because their (free) update comes a couple of days later than they expected goes beyond me (and I hope must be something cultural).

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

Just curious, but how many of the new customers that bought FL6 at GC do you think are pleased with their purchase when it's already had so many bug fixes?...That tells me they bought flawed merchandise and they had it several weeks before the release and bug fixes. With first impressions having as much impact as it does, do you think it was good for business?

Perhaps your method of choosing beta-testors should be more scrutinized in the future.

I love this update very much, it addressed all my issues....thank you...but it's coming off that it might of been a public relations disaster...I know I've taken it on the chin several times in the last two weeks defending FL, but clearly this hasn't come off smoothly at all.


BTW chrome is a toy, I can't believe you think people would fork out cash for a big projector to show visuals that can only be played with FL and you must even write the part for the "light show" in FL...I thought you wanted to escape the toy label.

[james0tucson]

I attribute the problems I reported to perhaps a cultural aspect of Belgium.

I can assure you that the fact that the (US based) distribution center of Guitar Center had the boxes on the shelves 2 weeks earlier than expected had little or nothing to do with cultural differences.

There! You just did it again! It's not "what happened", which is perfectly understandable. It's your defensive attitude toward feedback about what happened, about your attitude about what happened!

On the other hand the fact that customers feel the urge to look for another host because their (free) update comes a couple of days later than they expected goes beyond me (and I hope must be something cultural).

Again, I think you're misunderstanding the reasons people are giving you. It's not about "a couple of days late", it's about the terse and defensive justification that was given when you were questioned about it.

It really surprised me to find out that you had a distribution release ready, and hadn't allowed the customers to get an early view. That's your choice to make, I admit.

It surprises me even more that, when you're getting close to a release, you pick a few "beta testers" instead of casting that release as far and wide as you possibly can to anyone who would agree to be a guinea pig. You have practically a cult following. There's really no reason you should find yourself in the position of having released a product with defects.

[ceenda]

At the end of the day, each of us can only really speak from experience.

I have had problems in the past with compatibility, registration problems, etc.

In each situation, IL (jmc et al) have responded quickly, politely and professionaly. Sadly, when people have a complaint with IL, they don't word things in a straightforward manner, instead assuming the position of some immense injustice which has caused them to seek counselling... In some ways, I wonder if it's "overfamiliarity breeding contempt" and I wonder if IL should distance themselves from the userbase. It would be a sad day for user/developer relations, but might create the anonymity to stop these pointless "OMG!!! I.L. R TEH APOCALIPSSEEE" type crap which gets spat out in KVR and LoopTalk...

[JMC]

I still see people feeling slighted by IL ...

Let's please put this in the right perspective here : We have over 85.000 paying customers. If only 1% (which isn't unreasonable) of them has a system/situation/issue that we can't fix we'd be talking about 850 people with huge problems (and that really is not the case).

Now add 150.000 people downloading the demo each month & about 300.000 warez users banging our (virtual) doors claiming to be a customer and wanting support.

you seem to keep being defensive and make excuses ...

What more can we do than try to explain why the boxes were a couple of days earlier on the shelves than the online versions ? On top of that we're being accused of doing this deliberately to make more on the boxes (while it's exactly the other way arround) ?

you can predict what your reply will be jmc

In that case I'll be glad to stay of of these kind of discussions in the future.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

[Carbonboy]

You can criticize me for pointing it out, if that makes you feel better. I'm sure it's easier to do a useless thing to criticize me, than it would be to make suggestions to the IL folks that might lead to an improved life for them.

First, you are making assumptions again. My reply to you had nothing to do with my emotional needs.

I thought you were being unreasonable, you have made the assumption that Image Line owes you something beyond the promise of free updates. You are assuming (hence my slightly aggressive I admit 'self riteous' comment, apologies for that) that you should get these updates first. Where did they promise that? Your disappointment stems from the fact that you had an expectation, not that Image Line failed to deliver on their promise.

As you can see from JMCs reply, they did intend to get the SW version to paying customers first/sooner, but they had some problems.

Carb.

[Hink]

I still see people feeling slighted by IL ...

Let's please put this in the right perspective here : We have over 85.000 paying customers. If only 1% (which isn't unreasonable) of them has a system/situation/issue that we can't fix we'd be talking about 850 people with huge problems (and that really is not the case).

Now add 150.000 people downloading the demo each month & about 300.000 warez users banging our (virtual) doors claiming to be a customer and wanting support.

you seem to keep being defensive and make excuses ...

What more can we do than try to explain why the boxes were a couple of days earlier on the shelves than the online versions ? On top of that we're being accused of doing this deliberately to make more on the boxes (while it's exactly the other way arround) ?

you can predict what your reply will be jmc

In that case I'll be glad to stay of of these kind of discussions in the future.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

I would type out all the names of all the companies I have seen over the years that have said the same thing (and I knew that would be your answer) that no longer exist, but I would be typing until FL7... complancy can be dangerous...remember I said I wasn't flaming you, but pointing out a pattern and offering constructive criticism...it's a shame you can't take it that way... Enjoy the ride while it lasts, and uhm....read the title of this thread a couple dozen times...maybe you'll see the hand-writing on the wall. I have always been supportive of FL, you know that. (big time this week)

But again, you're not listening to the customers, even ones that really care and are passionate about FL...so I'll just say...you're right, you're always right...but I'd keep one eye in the rearview if I were you...

[Hink]

for the record jmc has always been good to me and it's always been appreciated, I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea...he's top notch...

[lunik]

... 'passionate' users do often seem to get a little obbsessive and have a bit too much time on their hands. I see it with some users for the software we make at my current place of employment.

I've had times when I've spent far too much time on the internet or obbsessed over pretty trivial things so this isn't finger pointing.

It can be easy for the company to dismiss such users though, because of the err 'fuzzy emotional boundaries' even though often they have very good feedback.
Having said that - nasty bugs not fixed are enough to fuzzify the emotional boundaries of the most reserved of us I think! But FL doesn;t seem to have this issue in my experience.

The fact that imageline come out and engage and talk is very healthy imo. With many other organizations it is 'corperate distance' all the way and the users are very distanced from the designers (and vice versa) - not good.

At the end of the day, each of us can only really speak from experience.

I have had problems in the past with compatibility, registration problems, etc.

In each situation, IL (jmc et al) have responded quickly, politely and professionaly. Sadly, when people have a complaint with IL, they don't word things in a straightforward manner, instead assuming the position of some immense injustice which has caused them to seek counselling... In some ways, I wonder if it's "overfamiliarity breeding contempt" and I wonder if IL should distance themselves from the userbase. It would be a sad day for user/developer relations, but might create the anonymity to stop these pointless "OMG!!! I.L. R TEH APOCALIPSSEEE" type crap which gets spat out in KVR and LoopTalk...

[BONES]

I don't see any differences with Richard offering his own VSTis (I believe he did Hydra, Scorpion and some others).

I just realised what the big difference is - you guys release your new plug-in at the same time as the new update of FLS which make sit seem like you are only offerring part of the upgrade for free whereas Rich's VST development is on its own schedule and not tied in at all with ORION's schedule. So it is very much just a perception I'm sure, but one that makes ImageLine look somewhat less honest than others, at least to me.

[Carbonboy]

I don't see any differences with Richard offering his own VSTis (I believe he did Hydra, Scorpion and some others).

I just realised what the big difference is...So it is very much just a perception I'm sure, but one that makes ImageLine look somewhat less honest than others, at least to me.

BONES that's just insane, you point out the logical flaw in your position, then say that you still are subject to that perception...as I said, you just live to be irritated by Image-Line.

Carb.

[tony tony chopper]

I don't understand why JM even bothers to reply. Give people a free update, and some will whine because some others could buy it in a box a week before they could download it. This world is f**ked up (as JM says).

[BONES]

BONES that's just insane, you point out the logical flaw in your position, then say that you still are subject to that perception...as I said, you just live to be irritated by Image-Line.

So you don't see anything strange about everything being made available at the same time? You don't think that maybe they are trading on the free update to encourage more sales of the new plug-in? I still see some degree of culpability there, sorry if you don't.

[tony tony chopper]

You don't think that maybe they are trading on the free update to encourage more sales of the new plug-in?

Of course, why not?

I still see some degree of culpability there

Guilty of business I guess. You can blame about everyone then, including yourself (probably), and this very forum, that you use for free, but that contains commercial advertising.

[BONES]

Exactly. You wouldn't take advantage of your friends like that but your customers, that's a whole 'nuther thing for you I suppode. I'd like to think I treat everybody with the same set of standards.

[soma]

I'm not a religious guy or anything but have you FL fanboy boys complaining about not getting all the new goodies while still getting free updates for the price you paid originally ever heard the parable of the workers in the field?

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