Vintage is overrated. Lesson learned(rant)

[himalaya]

I like this track a lot too. Very cool, if you ask me. Love that sublime lead sound !

Anyone got an idea how to label this kind of music

To me this is just Electronic Music. Perhaps as it used to be known *before* everything produced with a few synths got labeled as 'electronic' ( ie: dance, pop...)

[living sounds]

I like this track a lot too. Very cool, if you ask me. Love that sublime lead sound !

To me this is just Electronic Music. Perhaps as it used to be known *before* everything produced with a few synths got labeled as 'electronic' ( ie: dance, pop...)

Thanks alot! I had planned to put it away never to be released. Maybe I should finish it and send it to a label after all...

[living sounds]

Love that sublime lead sound !

BTW, the Polaris is a real sleeper synth IMO. I think sonically it's right there with some of the cherished big polysynths. Not as versatile, and not without problems, but the sonics are great. It cannot do Juno-60 like strings, but it can do really alive, organic sounding bass, piano, weird stuff, brass, lead, organ, anything funky etc. And I've seen it go for less than 500 $ on eBay.com (not much use for us Europeans though, as it's very heavy). So if you can find one fully-working I'd say get it.

[Vectorman]

Posting my own stuff isn't likely to end any debate, but anyway, here's a track I made like two weeks ago (checking out the Sync-Lock, I think). I've upgraded the console some more since, lot's more clarity now, but this shows quite well what half an hour of jamming (and then simply muting midi tracks on and off in real time) sounds like. Never mind the glitches, the external converter wasn't synced properly (not too audible though). And yes, it sounds like a porn soundtrack. Wink

www.scherer.de/Download/Mushrooms.mp3

That was tasty. Beautiful mix. Of course, if most "porn soundtracks" were this nicely done, it might be distracting...we'd be back in musician mode checking out the music instead, LOL.

[himalaya]

Try and make a simple squarewave sequence like the one in the example from the SH-2 with a VA. Get it as punchy, natural and with the sheen in the high end. I know I couldn't do it.

http://www.electric-himalaya.com/stuff/ ... synths.wav

clip 1 - synth A - I feel this one is the closest to the SH2 example.
clip 2 - synth B - not bad but darker. It hasn't got that top shine of Sh2. This is closer to the MoodPhatty example, perhaps.
clip 3 - synth C - using 4 pole LPF. Close to phatty but not quiet. Not as bright as the SH2
clip 4 - synth C - now using 2 pole LPF. The sound is as bright an lush as SH2, with the filter open, but it is diffrent at the start, when the filter is closed. Lacks a bit of body.
clip 5 - synth D - is as bright as SH2, it is not as bouncy though. This sound is spoiled by automation artifacts. When I tweak the cutoff knob manually the sound is clean, but when i automate it, I get some strange artifacts. I left it in the mix, since I liked the overall sound (it's just spoiled by that noise).

Now, the SH2 example you posted was nice, full bodied with a nice top end, but I just don't like that kind of envelope response, since I can hear the envelope snap in between the notes. That's not good for me. Ok, the envelope is fast, but I don't want to hear it. All I want to hear is the sound itself. Nothing else. This was especially annoying when the filter was fully opened. There is that 'flapping' noise, which should not be part of the sound.

I much prefered the sound of MoogPhatty. It was as bouncy as anything, not as bright as the SH2, but it does not have any envelope sound artifacts. That the SH2 example is brighter is irrelevant to me, as I can always EQ the sound in the mix to add as much brightness as I wish. So let no one get hung up on the extra 3dB of brightness here or there. These are irrelevant differences, perhaps revealing different signal chain designs, than any intrinsic failure to meet 'analogue' sound criteria.

[zerocrossing]

However, I'll shut up on the other front. Maybe you're right. That track didn't sound like any porn music I've heard (though I'm not a connoisseur ) but it sounded fantastic. Can you tell a little more about what instruments you used in it?

And yes, I'm now mad and will probably have to go on a gear hunt.

Glad you like it, wasn't expecting that...

Why not? I'm a reasonable man. A sarcastic wise-ass, but good is good and there's no denying it.

One of the reasons I've been so critical of your assertions is that up until now you've been doing this, "my way is the best, but you'll have to take my word for it." That, more than anything else, rubs me wrong. I think you'll go a lot farther in your argument by saying, "I think vintage is best because it sounds like this." How could I argue that? Anyone who listened to that track, whether they liked the music or not (I did) would have to agree the production and sound were great.

Anyway the gear was 909, 727, DIY 808 kickdrum, microcon II through A/DA flanger (the main sequence), TX7 (bell-like sound), SH-2 (bass), SE-1 (synth sound with lot's of reverb), Polaris through MF-103 (lead), JD-990 (pad). Also several DIY compressors, DIY Dimension D, two Lexicon Nuverbs, a Studio Quad for the delay. All mixed through a Soundcraft 200B I bought for 100 bucks and then recapped and modded thoroughly.
The thing I like is, it sounds like this with basically half an hour of programming midi, drum machines, some patching and turning EQ knobs on the fly. Layering of kick drums and bass etc. without low cuts doesn't translate into mud, but just adds up nicely. The obvious downside is I will hardly ever be able to reproduce it exactly like this, even with most of the gear (including the reverb units) midified.

The micronon and the 909s were the standouts for me in terms of surpassing a good VST at the VA game, but it all sounded good. I think I'd be way more inclined to get a an SE-1 (I've considered it) than a DX/TX. I'm not convinced there's enough, or any, difference between the quality of a TX7 and a plug in like Toxic III or Octopus. (never made the jump into FM8)

Anyone got an idea how to label this kind of music? It started out as Psybient (actually just testing the newly arrived Sync-Lock), but then with the DX-sound got more camp and softporn soundtrack like...

There I can not help you. I call everything like this electronica and I'm not even sure what the difference between trance and techno are. I can point out hip hop on a good day but don't ask me what sub genre.

[Synthbuilder]

Anyone got an idea how to label this kind of music?

Take a look at many of the offerings at:

http://www.musiczeit.com

It would fit in there with all the rest of us. Berlin School inspired electronica.

[Synthbuilder]

I mean, does any Jupiter or Oberheim etc. today sound the same as it did 20-30 years ago? Or do people confuse attributes like warm, "analog", "phat" etc. with just plain "broken sounding"? Even components that haven't yet failed must have degraded quite a bit in 30 years...

I have often asked myself this question. My own feeling is that they haven't changed that much.

However, every Mini does sound a little bit different. Although, you'd probably only notice it if you had two side by side, or if you had your own one for a long time and compared to another one.

Would the same Mini change its sound over the years? Possibly but not by much. The general character would still be there.

But a time machine recovered brand new Mini is not going to sound like Voyager simply because they are built completely different - the circuitry of both have very little in common.

Polarised capacitors do degrade and they do have a sonic affect on the sound. Replace any cap with a decent new one and you'll be reversing the ageing affect.

Transistors also degrade albeit very slowly, and chips certainly do. Replacing these with new ones, of the same type, should also reverse that ageing affect. Replacing them with new improved types will, quite possibly, change the sound. I don't believe the overall character will change, but these sorts of upgrades will often make them quieter, more stable and perhaps even better. But the latter is a very subjective thing.

It is interesting that no clone of the TB303 sounds exactly like an original. All of them get very close, but in any AB testing, you can normally spot the original. Why this is, is a whole forum of opinions, and we'll probably never get to the bottom of that. But capacitive ageing, capacitor and resistor construction, circuit board layout and different manufacturing processes all must play a small part. Each on their own imperceptible but added together in a whole instrument and they become more apparent.

[v1o]

Analogue synths are over-rated. Modern synths are far better instruments.


Can an analogue synth sound like this?


Or this?

You're not serious, are you?

I'm dead serious. Many vintage units lack the sheer synthesis power to do lots of modulations and snappy envelopes. Try doing something basic thing like a percussive e-piano on a vintage analogue - it will sound absolutely terrible. Modern synths are far better music instruments overall. The Andromeda A6(not a vintage) is probably the only analogue that does nice pianos because its got digital envelopes and LFOs.

[jcrisman]

From now on, I no longer want to buy vintage instruments, they aren't worth the headache, especially if you are a composer/working musician.

Sure you may be looking for "that" sound. Which no other synth can duplicate exactly, but "that" sound was 25 years ago, the people who got "that" sound were just making music with whatever resources they had.

I say stop looking for "that" sound, and start making the "next new" sound.

We have plenty of gear, sound palettes, options that musicians would've killed for 25 years ago.

Meh, if you really want to go vintage, then pick up some rocks and tree branches from outside and get your groove on.

Less soldering will be required, and it will be a lower electrical fire hazard.

[Coxy]

Vintage is overrated. There, I said it too.

Not crap - there's a whole ton of vintage gear I'd love to own, such as the venerable Minimoog. There's a whole ton of vintage gear I've owned and loved, too. I'm not saying it's not great, but it's definitely overrated. Forums like these and VSE etc whip folks into such a frenzy that it seems we just gotta have it. Same with real analog. It's great, but it's overrated, and for just the same reasons.

A great many people buy a Little Phatty or a Tetra because the world seems to run on transistors and discrete components. Forums full of experts dictate the analog/vintage superiority. And so you by one.. and, well, frankly you're underwhelmed. So you persist for a while, and you just can't shake the feeling that it's just not moving you like the forums said it would.

Overzealous 'marketing' by unpaid third parties. That's how business would coin it; they're right. Doesn't matter whether it's old or new, analo or digital, hard or soft. What matters is how it whets your very own whistle, not someone else's, and certainly someone you've never met who maintains it's the best thing since sliced bread.

One of the most insightful posts I've seen here.
Thank you.

[Uncle E]

But a time machine recovered brand new Mini is not going to sound like Voyager simply because they are built completely different - the circuitry of both have very little in common.

No disrespect intended - I feel like I've been dreaming of building an Oakley kit for the better part of my electronic music career - but isn't that a bit of an overstatement?

It is interesting that no clone of the TB303 sounds exactly like an original.

The TeeBee was accurate but I suppose that's because it was made of 303 parts.

btw, what's the status on the Orbital and Orbital Lite?

[Synthbuilder]

But a time machine recovered brand new Mini is not going to sound like Voyager simply because they are built completely different - the circuitry of both have very little in common.

No disrespect intended - I feel like I've been dreaming of building an Oakley kit for the better part of my electronic music career - but isn't that a bit of an overstatement?

Sorry, in what way? Do you mean that the Voyager is close to the Mini?

Earlier on the thread someone mentioned that a new Mini may sound like a Voyager. I don't think it would; they're too different, even if you patched in the same routing into the Voyager. I had both for a time and I modded my Voyager to be more Mini like.

Circuitry wise they are hugely different. Only the filter shares some similarity. In many ways the Voyager is closer to the Moog Source - which is no bad thing I should say. The Voyager is an excellent synth.

The TeeBee was accurate but I suppose that's because it was made of 303 parts.

I've not heard any of those. But I bet there is a difference that some folk will be able to spot. I thought my own clone was pretty good - but not everyone agrees.

What's the status on the Orbital and Orbital Lite?

Have a look a couple of pages back of this thread about that one.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I agree that this "hunt for vintage sound" is a bit out of hand.
But there are ways to get a good feeling and a warm sound out of plugin synths.I have been running all my software synths through a decent DDA desk,and it surely helps when its eq'ed and summed totally analog.
The main thing here is that is sounds good to me,and thats all I need.

That for me personally sellmestory is i would agree where using analogue along with digital has a great advantage and great sonic rewards: aslong as one's AD/DA converters are good quality or your best off staying ITB tbh!

I have my eye on a FatBustard by Thermionic Culture but atm a little too much money i don't have. Still one day and also Radial Engineering's Workhorse 500-Series alternative to API's LunchBox looks very promising. Like they do at Radial just come in with something that address problems that were intially there and making sure that they can iron out as many kinks as possible - So a 'Workhorse' might be on the cards instead of the Bustard depending on how i like it when i get around to trying one out and the luxury of the modular synth-like advantages of the 500-series format don't hurt either

Dean/Nekro

[Uncle E]

I had both for a time and I modded my Voyager to be more Mini like.

Was that an extensive mod? May I ask what the main changes were?

What's the status on the Orbital and Orbital Lite?

Have a look a couple of pages back of this thread about that one.

The Lite sounds interesting! I'm now looking more forward to that than to the bigger Orbital.