New from Klevgränd: Kuvert (Envelope Shaper)

[Numanoid]

Numanoid, how do you think it should work then? It would need to be significantly changed how it works, I assume. I mean, without the sequencer telling that the time is rolling, how would the plugin know how long is X bars --

To make a comparison: When I use an arp plug in FL Studio, I don't need to have the DAW running to get that to drive a plug. I can set the speed of the arp either to default bpm that the DAW is currently at, or select to set speed manually.

I then play the arp in the DAW, just like I would a standalone hardware keyboard, by pressing a key (on the midi keyboard I have hooked up) to start the sound, when I release the key, the sound stops

I can draw the patterns I want the sequencers inside the arp to play, on the fly when I'm playing, without the DAW running

[ras.s]

But that still doesn't explain how you would like this plugin to function. Would it trigger the envelope on each note it receives or only for between the first Note On and the last Note Off (MIDI messages)? It's different if you're playing long chords with your left hand and a melody of varying length notes on the right hand. In the case of it being an effect on an arpeggiated sound but still triggered by the same MIDI, it would also be different depending on whether the arpeggiator sits between your keyboard and the synth or if it is internal in the synth (the effect would receive different information).

If continuously on, it couldn't automatically sync with what you play.

In each of those scenarios I would find it more useful that it works the way it does now, always on when the sequencer is running, if not for anything else then for simplicity's sake. If I would buy this plugin, most likely my use for it would be on the chain of a aux send rather than as a insert on a instrument and I definitely prefer not having to control its trigger in that case.

[Numanoid]

Would it trigger the envelope on each note it receives or only for between the first Note On and the last Note Off (MIDI messages)?

On each note like the ADSR envelope on most synths

It's different if you're playing long chords with your left hand and a melody of varying length notes on the right hand.

Indeed it is and so it is for reverb or delay plugs, or most plugs I put on the FX chain

In the case of it being an effect on an arpeggiated sound but still triggered by the same MIDI, it would also be different depending on whether the arpeggiator sits between your keyboard and the synth or if it is internal in the synth (the effect would receive different information).

Seeing that, I find it weird that each time I lament that a synth comes without an inbuilt arp, users just tell me to shut up and use a separate arp plug to drive the synth. So why is that, you say there are differences there still?

[Numanoid]

no shift-click for fine tuning and no ctrl-click for resetting the values

From the manual: "EDITING
• All knobs can be alt-pressed to go back to its initial state.
• All knobs can be fine tuned by ctrl-pressing and dragging.
• The envelope window can be alt-clicked to ”smooth”-draw."

Good to know who appears to have read the manual, and who has not

[ras.s]

Would it trigger the envelope on each note it receives or only for between the first Note On and the last Note Off (MIDI messages)?

On each note like the ADSR envelope on most synths

It's different if you're playing long chords with your left hand and a melody of varying length notes on the right hand.

Indeed it is and so it is for reverb or delay plugs, or any plug I put on the FX chain

It's not a ADSR envelope, but a looped one -- more like a drawable LFO. It's still technically an envelope.

The difference would be that what would it do to the sound of the long chords while there are gaps between the notes in the melody line? Would it fall to zero (no effect)? Jump to a point in the envelope (which point)?

A reverb or a delay plugin usually affects the whole sound and isn't triggered by anything, they're always on. As Kuvert is now, it's more like those reverbs or delays in its behaviour.

In the case of it being an effect on an arpeggiated sound but still triggered by the same MIDI, it would also be different depending on whether the arpeggiator sits between your keyboard and the synth or if it is internal in the synth (the effect would receive different information).

Seeing that, I find it weird that each time I lament that a synth comes without an inbuilt arp, users just tell me to shut up and use a separate arp plug to drive the synth. So why is that, you say there are differences there still?

Well the difference in this case is what I described above. Of course you could have the trigger coming from somewhere else than directly from your keyboard, but then you need either a modular system or system with flexible MIDI routing -- and contemplation about how you're going to do it, where that MIDI is going to come from and so on.

Look at it this way, you've got either of these setups:
keyboard -> arp -> synth -> effect
keyboard -> synth with arp -> effect

If the effect receives MIDI linearly like I suppose most instrument racks on hosts will handle it, it will most likely be different: in the first it will receive just about any imaginable amount of notes, spaced differently and with different lengths, while on the latter, it most likely just receives what you play on the keyboard (four notes for four bars, for example). Most synths that have internal arpeggiators, don't output the MIDI (this is a major advantage of an external arp, as the musician can then use it to layer multiple sounds). If triggered by MIDI, the effect would behave differently.


And thanks for that slightly passive aggresive note there. I did confirm I hadn't read the manual. But then, we do know who has high expectations based on their false conclusions of advertising blurbs.

[Numanoid]

Most synths that have internal arpeggiators, don't output the MIDI (this is a major advantage of an external arp, as the musician can then use it to layer multiple sounds).

You can solve that by duplicating the instrument to another channel, and play them both at once to layer multiple sounds.

[ras.s]

That assumes the sounds come from two instances of the same synth or that two different synths have exactly the same kind of arpeggiator.

[Numanoid]

That assumes the sounds come from two instances of the same synth or that two different synths have exactly the same kind of arpeggiator.

By duplicating I meant that I make an "identical copy" of synth from Channel A to Channel B, so that I got the same synth in both Channels. This is useful when I got a mono synth, and want to play chords, or layer sounds in general

[ras.s]

Ok, but that still doesn't have the same advantage of having one good external arpeggiator beat the crap out of every internal arp, especially those half-thought ones slapped on synths so it can be said they have arps. And it has even less to do with the topic and your feature request/behaviour expectation with Kuvert.

[Numanoid]

Ok, but that still doesn't have the same advantage of having one good external arpeggiator beat the crap out of every internal arp, especially those half-thought ones slapped on synths so it can be said they have arps. And it has even less to do with the topic and your feature request/behaviour expectation with Kuvert.

If you got the money you can buy better gear of course.

But you are right, lets not turn it into a fanboi argument about internal/external arps

[ras.s]

So what would you want it to do to the sound of the long chords while there are gaps between the notes in the melody line? Would it fall to zero (no effect)? Jump to a point in the envelope (which point)?

Triggering the envelope on each note might be useful for monophonic stuff, but likely to be terrible on polyphonic stuff. Good for stuff like modulating the bass line with the kickdrum, for example, but bad for when there are more than one sound playing at a time. Might be nice, but functions well enough as it is.

Personally I'd be more interested in it if it had more patterns per patch. As it is now it's too much of a set-and-forget type of thing. Plus the crackles when automating/controlling with hardware are a show stopper.

[Numanoid]

So what would you want it to do to the sound of the long chords while there are gaps between the notes in the melody line? Would it fall to zero (no effect)? Jump to a point in the envelope (which point)?

Are you like the dev or something?

[ras.s]

Phew, ok, I'll take note that it's not ok to ask you either "why" or "how". You skipped the question earlier and went off-topic, so I thought you'd still like to talk about it, but I guess not.

[Numanoid]

So that what's it was all about, the moment I quit jumping the hoops you had set up, I was a bad user, who refused to do what I am being told.

And this you spend an hour posting gibberish about, wow, good use of your time indeed

so I thought you'd still like to talk about it, but I guess not.

Talk about it with you, are you the dev?

I have made my point, why going on and on and on requesting that I make my case for making a point

[ras.s]

Hoops I had set up?

No, I'm not the developer. I'm a person who is interested in the effect plugin and I'm wondering about how you would wish the actual developers to complicate its basic functionality, the functionality which appears to be good for everyone else. And I did agree with you if you didn't notice, I just can't see it being such a big deal.

Time I had spent? Well since you're interested, I cooked a stew at the same time. How why What about you? Why'd you get so worked up this time with the passive aggressiveness earlier and now still trying to insult me? And that's a rhetoric question, we can quit now.