ARP 2600 Clone?

[ghettosynth]

In your own words, if the filter is "off by a parsec", there's no point in wasting any more time.

Yeah, but the 2600Vs filter isnt off by a parsec. (Quite the contrary.) There certainly is room for improvement, especially with regards to high resonance, and ive already conceded that. But this does by no means negate the fact that the filter is doing pretty well at low and no resonance, so the only thing that can be said here is that certain aspects of it can still be made better. Anything beyond that just isnt based on fact.

(I mean, sorry for being blunt, but have you even listened to the first clip i posted? Wouldnt you say that these 2 non-resonant filter sweeps sound pretty darn identical? So how can a filter which is 'total crap' sound so identical to the hardware? I mean you do see the problem here, right?)

Yes I listened to it, yes they sound close, but that level of closeness is not what I'm talking about. Those tests are easy, and to me, unimportant. You can get that sound with almost any synth.

As pdxindy points out, it's not just high resonance, it's about rapid modulation changes and filter FM as well. For me, today, if you fail those tests then you are off by too much. Technology allows us to do better today and any synth that claims to model a modular cannot fail those tests.

I mean, I can be blunt too here. If an emulation cannot nail the most iconic 2600 sound that was used on one of the earliest examples of a synth being front and center in a hit pop record, then the emulation is lacking. Not to mention that the sound in question is really simple.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this. To me, getting that character right across the range of the filter is what matters and is what's challenging. The rest was possible ten years ago and if that's all that we had I would still have a lot of hardware in my studio.

[ENV1]

Actually we are not really in disagreement, at least not as much as it may appear.

For instance the need for an improved filter model is obvious and cannot be denied. Its just that you are basically ready to dismiss the whole thing based on this room for improvement whereas i find it important to acknowledge the things that are fine already as well, i.e. to point out the fact that even in its current state the 2600V will give you a lot of what a real 2600V will give you because the emulation does have that sound character.

[pdxindy]

(I mean, sorry for being blunt, but have you even listened to the first clip i posted? Wouldnt you say that these 2 non-resonant filter sweeps sound pretty darn identical? So how can a filter which is 'total crap' sound so identical to the hardware? I mean you do see the problem here, right?)

You see, i prefer to see things realistically. The way they really are. And when i see a filter emulation which is close but not perfect then that is exactly how i would describe it. Close but not perfect. Anything outside of that really doesnt interest me because anything outside of that isnt facts.

(I also mean no offense) A non-resonant filter sweep is nothing significant... no resonance and a very slow modulation... the main thing that will show is if there is stair-stepping.

You are talking about what is essentially a snapshot. Sure a photograph of Niagara Falls looks pretty close to that specific moment it was snapped. However, the roar of the water, the fresh tang in the air, the sheer magnitude of open space and power you feel... none of that is there in the photograph.

By your measure, that photograph is close. I see how you are measuring it and can understand what you are saying. It's valid from that perspective. However, to my way of measuring, it does not come close to representing the dynamic aliveness of being there.

There is something lovely about a quality analog filter... something dynamic. Put a ribbon controller on the cutoff and the way it jumps from state to state has this pleasing coherent quality to it... turn up the resonance and add some feedback and use the ribbon and the filter feels alive with some unexpected beautiful places of sonic goodness... like real electricity cascading through wires...

Even the best digital filters today don't quite get there but they have started to capture some of that electricity in the wires feeling... but the ones from some years ago are not close by my way of measuring, which values the dynamic aliveness, not the ability to be a relatively static snapshot.

[ENV1]

(I also mean no offense) A non-resonant filter sweep is nothing significant... no resonance and a very slow modulation... the main thing that will show is if there is stair-stepping.

I could give you a resonant sweep too and it would still be close. It wouldnt have the growl of a real 4012 and ive already said that, but it would still be close because you can hear thats its emulating a 4012 and not something completely different.


As for the 'snapshot' thing, let me put it to you this way. Lets assume, just for the sake of the argument, that the 4012 wasnt capable of exciting itself into oscillation, and that all modulations on the 2600 were LF. This would still be a lot of synthesizer, so wouldnt you agree that this has to be included in the equation as well?

Thats what im doing.

[olikana]

to expose the slugginesh of a non 0df filter you should compare punchy ressy sounds, not slow seeps.
comparing only slow seeps & sustained long decaying sounds to the originals is exactly how the software companies were able to fool you in buying these flawed emulations, so you wouldn't notice how sluggish the filter was when being fast modulated .
only after 0df were introduced did they start comparing punchy and zappy sounds to the originals.
arp2600v last time i checked still didn't have a 0df and still sounded smudgy and plasticky when fast modulated.
arturia for their own reputation should pull it or update it.

[Daags]

if you can't make music with the 2600v you should find another hobby.

[wagtunes]

if you can't make music with the 2600v you should find another hobby.

Nobody is saying you can't make music with the 2600v. I do. It just isn't a 2600 emulation.

And as I said, I like the sound. I hate the GUI. But I like the sound.

[pdxindy]

(I also mean no offense) A non-resonant filter sweep is nothing significant... no resonance and a very slow modulation... the main thing that will show is if there is stair-stepping.

I could give you a resonant sweep too and it would still be close. It wouldnt have the growl of a real 4012 and ive already said that, but it would still be close because you can hear thats its emulating a 4012 and not something completely different.


As for the 'snapshot' thing, let me put it to you this way. Lets assume, just for the sake of the argument, that the 4012 wasnt capable of exciting itself into oscillation, and that all modulations on the 2600 were LF. This would still be a lot of synthesizer, so wouldnt you agree that this has to be included in the equation as well?

Thats what im doing.

Someone can play a piece of piano music, play everything correctly, and everyone will recognize what it is and it can still sound mechanical, dry and lifeless. You are saying that deserves the term close. I think it is legitimate for you to say that. I just don't feel that way myself because the characteristic that most moves me is the part that is missing... the aliveness and magic

The Arturia 2600v just sounds dull and lifeless compared to a real 2600

[ENV1]

Someone can play a piece of piano music, play everything correctly, and everyone will recognize what it is and it can still sound mechanical, dry and lifeless. You are saying that deserves the term close.

No. I never said that.

The Arturia 2600v just sounds dull and lifeless compared to a real 2600

Not to the real 2600 i have recordings from. And that machine was/is in excellent condition.

[zerocrossing]

As pdxindy points out, it's not just high resonance, it's about rapid modulation changes and filter FM as well. For me, today, if you fail those tests then you are off by too much. Technology allows us to do better today and any synth that claims to model a modular cannot fail those tests.

To be fair, this is where most emulations fail to various degrees. Even the venerated Monark running at 96 khz doesn't sound as good as my cheap Neptune 2 when doing a pretty simple one osc with audio rate filter modulation. Now, I know Monark isn't a clone of the Neptune 2, and the Neptune 2 isn't a clone of a Minimoog, but my guess is that if I had a Minimoog in front of me I'd be making the same statement about that. The Neptune is about $4500 cheaper than a Minimoog, though just as rare these days in the U.S. Still, you could get a similar result with the sub-$500 Novation Bass Station 2.

Now, of course, none of the above mentioned synths have near the modulation capabilities of a 2600. I'm not sure what it would take to put a "2600esque" modular set up together, but it wouldn't be under $1000, that's for sure. You could go for a MS-20 Mini though. They regularly sell for under $500 on ebay and while still not a 2600, you're a step or two closer for about the cost of two plug ins. I personally bought a Sonic Core system because it does audio rate modulation really well and I believe there's a good ARP filter emulation in the Flexor expansion pack. It's expensive, but not as much as a 2600. If you're totally adverse to hardware, then pick up Reaktor 6 or ACE. They do audio-rate modulation fairly well. Not 2600 emulations, of course, but if you focus on what they are instead of what they're not, you might actually find something new.

[ghettosynth]

As pdxindy points out, it's not just high resonance, it's about rapid modulation changes and filter FM as well. For me, today, if you fail those tests then you are off by too much. Technology allows us to do better today and any synth that claims to model a modular cannot fail those tests.

To be fair, this is where most emulations fail to various degrees. Even the venerated Monark running at 96 khz doesn't sound as good as my cheap Neptune 2 when doing a pretty simple one osc with audio rate filter modulation. Now, I know Monark isn't a clone of the Neptune 2, and the Neptune 2 isn't a clone of a Minimoog, but my guess is that if I had a Minimoog in front of me I'd be making the same statement about that. The Neptune is about $4500 cheaper than a Minimoog, though just as rare these days in the U.S. Still, you could get a similar result with the sub-$500 Novation Bass Station 2.

No doubt, I still own a bunch of analogs and the better ones aren't going anywhere anytime soon, especially the modular stuff. But, we aren't asking how far away other things are, we're asking how close the 2600v is to the 2600 and the absence of a quality modern filter is a sticking point, today.

Ten years ago I might have been amazed that something that was even close could be done at all, except I was not using plugins ten years ago. Today, however, I'm not, we have better standards and the 2600v fails to meet those standards.

Seriously, even just allowing the user to select internal oversampling for a HQ mode would be a significant improvement. I've looked for a generic oversampling plugin that works at 64 bit and haven't found one.

Now, of course, none of the above mentioned synths have near the modulation capabilities of a 2600. I'm not sure what it would take to put a "2600esque" modular set up together, but it wouldn't be under $1000, that's for sure. You could go for a MS-20 Mini though. They regularly sell for under $500 on ebay and while still not a 2600, you're a step or two closer for about the cost of two plug ins. I personally bought a Sonic Core system because it does audio rate modulation really well and I believe there's a good ARP filter emulation in the Flexor expansion pack. It's expensive, but not as much as a 2600.

Right, hardware wise you should expect to spend at least $2K to $3k or so for that level of capability, and that doesn't include the sequencer. Analog hardware is cheaper than it used to be, but it's not that cheap.

If you're totally adverse to hardware, then pick up Reaktor 6 or ACE. They do audio-rate modulation fairly well. Not 2600 emulations, of course, but if you focus on what they are instead of what they're not, you might actually find something new.

Yes, as I was saying above, if you want a good emulation of the sound, then really it is about quality components and audio rate modulation and there are only a few synths that do that well. ACE and/or Bazille will do many of the sounds even though they're not 2600 clones, per se, Reaktor 6 is capable of doing a really close and quality emulation, but probably not of all of the features all at the same time. You would have to pick and choose for the patch that you want.

All of that said, the 2600v is fun for sounds that don't push the filter. Load up one of the t-dream patches and start route one of the gate busses to the filter cutoff. Now by playing with the slider you can get these very nice changing rhythms.

The thing is, if Arturia would just oversample the thing so that users could choose a CPU sucking high quality mode, even without a zdf filter, I would be praising this thing. I could look past the bad GUI even. But, when you work with modular stuff filter limitations come up SO often that you can't just say, well, it does everything else well.

It's a really big limitation for this synth!

[fmr]

The thing is, if Arturia would just oversample the thing so that users could choose a CPU sucking high quality mode, even without a zdf filter, I would be praising this thing. I could look past the bad GUI even. But, when you work with modular stuff filter limitations come up SO often that you can't just say, well, it does everything else well.

It's a really big limitation for this synth!

Revisions are being worked on, so, who knows what the future will bring to us

[waltercruz]

It will sound differ, but if you are searching for a similar workflow, I think that Ace is your best bet. From the manual: "If you really want to compare ACE to a classic modular synth (or three), think of it as a pimped-up ARP 2600 using modules from a Roland SH-7 with (almost) the patching flexibility of an EMS VCS3 / Synthi A – but polyphonic. Just like the ARP 2600, ACE is pre-patched so that it will work out-of-the-box, but these default connections can be overridden by plugging in patch cables." And from the page: "semi-modular architecture, with default routing like ARP 2600".

Until 31st, you can try to find a coupon and get it cheaper.

[zerocrossing]

As pdxindy points out, it's not just high resonance, it's about rapid modulation changes and filter FM as well. For me, today, if you fail those tests then you are off by too much. Technology allows us to do better today and any synth that claims to model a modular cannot fail those tests.

To be fair, this is where most emulations fail to various degrees. Even the venerated Monark running at 96 khz doesn't sound as good as my cheap Neptune 2 when doing a pretty simple one osc with audio rate filter modulation. Now, I know Monark isn't a clone of the Neptune 2, and the Neptune 2 isn't a clone of a Minimoog, but my guess is that if I had a Minimoog in front of me I'd be making the same statement about that. The Neptune is about $4500 cheaper than a Minimoog, though just as rare these days in the U.S. Still, you could get a similar result with the sub-$500 Novation Bass Station 2.

No doubt, I still own a bunch of analogs and the better ones aren't going anywhere anytime soon, especially the modular stuff. But, we aren't asking how far away other things are, we're asking how close the 2600v is to the 2600 and the absence of a quality modern filter is a sticking point, today.

Ten years ago I might have been amazed that something that was even close could be done at all, except I was not using plugins ten years ago. Today, however, I'm not, we have better standards and the 2600v fails to meet those standards.

Seriously, even just allowing the user to select internal oversampling for a HQ mode would be a significant improvement. I've looked for a generic oversampling plugin that works at 64 bit and haven't found one.

Now, of course, none of the above mentioned synths have near the modulation capabilities of a 2600. I'm not sure what it would take to put a "2600esque" modular set up together, but it wouldn't be under $1000, that's for sure. You could go for a MS-20 Mini though. They regularly sell for under $500 on ebay and while still not a 2600, you're a step or two closer for about the cost of two plug ins. I personally bought a Sonic Core system because it does audio rate modulation really well and I believe there's a good ARP filter emulation in the Flexor expansion pack. It's expensive, but not as much as a 2600.

Right, hardware wise you should expect to spend at least $2K to $3k or so for that level of capability, and that doesn't include the sequencer. Analog hardware is cheaper than it used to be, but it's not that cheap.

If you're totally adverse to hardware, then pick up Reaktor 6 or ACE. They do audio-rate modulation fairly well. Not 2600 emulations, of course, but if you focus on what they are instead of what they're not, you might actually find something new.

Yes, as I was saying above, if you want a good emulation of the sound, then really it is about quality components and audio rate modulation and there are only a few synths that do that well. ACE and/or Bazille will do many of the sounds even though they're not 2600 clones, per se, Reaktor 6 is capable of doing a really close and quality emulation, but probably not of all of the features all at the same time. You would have to pick and choose for the patch that you want.

All of that said, the 2600v is fun for sounds that don't push the filter. Load up one of the t-dream patches and start route one of the gate busses to the filter cutoff. Now by playing with the slider you can get these very nice changing rhythms.

The thing is, if Arturia would just oversample the thing so that users could choose a CPU sucking high quality mode, even without a zdf filter, I would be praising this thing. I could look past the bad GUI even. But, when you work with modular stuff filter limitations come up SO often that you can't just say, well, it does everything else well.

It's a really big limitation for this synth!

In my latest obsession, I threw ARP2600v into the mix to see how it's audio rate filter modulation held up. Surprisingly well! It only falls apart in high resonances, but boy does it fall apart spectacularly. To be honest though, not much else really fared all that well in the software department. Even my beloved ProTone choked when the resonance was cranked up.

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds. Even 2600v was doing a decent job up until a point and producing usable lead and bass sounds. Does it sound like a real ARP 2600? No idea really, but the filter at low resonances does sound pretty close to the ARP filter in the Studio Electronics ATC-X. (there are 4 filters that are clones of the Minimoog, ARP, SEM and 303 on board)

But anyway, if anyone from Arturia is reading this (and I'm sure they're probably not), you're pretty damn close to having a winner. If you're actually in development of putting in some new filter tech that doesn't turn into crap at high resonances, good on you. If not, you're really leaving money on the table because it's clear from this thread that there is an interest.

What this thread does kind of illustrate is the part of the venn diagram where emulations and analog hardware do not overlap. There's lots of threads where we all guess wrong (well not all...) that Diva isn't hardware. Of course, it sounds fantastic in it's wheelhouse. Of course, it's polyphony and other functionality make it way beyond any moldy old analog in many respects, but if you're like me and like a mean sounding bass line with lot's of audio rate filter modulation going on, you're going to need to drop at least a few hundred dollars on a hardware analog synth. Hit me up if you're interested in a Spectral Audio Neptune 2. I don't really have the inputs for it and so much of what it does is covered by my ATC-X that it seems a bit of a waste to have both. ATC-1s can also be had a cheap prices (I got mine around $500 a while ago, sold it for about the same to fund the ATC-X QFS upgrade) Again, if you're really on a budget and want some decent audio rate filter modulation, the Bass Station 2 is killer.

[waltercruz]

Although I'm not a ARP 2600 fan, a tricky that were possible on some versions of ARP and that is real nice is duophony. I opened a ticket no Arturia asking if they were planning to include this and they just closed the ticket without explanation.