Will we ever see vsts of Korg Z1 or Yamaha VL?

[Dasheesh]

SO here's a question, Is SPIRE the same kind of deal as a Z1?

Not at all.

Well, you have four oscillators that you choose oscillations like violin, bass, piano, etc... then use them as building blocks using FM self am/fm etc...

Because, to have a violin, is not enough to have a violin wave in an oscillator. You will need a "real", or something that behaves like a "real" violin (you know, that thing that has a wood box, with two holes in S shape, a bridge, four strings, and is played with a bow). Because EVERYTHING in that thing matters to the sound, and the same note can sound different in many ways, depending on what kind of bow strike you use, how much pressure is made on the strings, where does the bow play the strings, which string is played, etc.

Meh. Just add some velocity to the wave morphing.

By all means, be my guest. If you manage to come up with a convincing emulation of a real violin, I'm here to hear it

I don't think anybody gives a hoot about what's a real violin anymore. They wouldn't know it if they heard it. If they want a real violin they will turn to samples and call it a day. Here's a violin that I threw together on spire in about an hour. I'm sure you could do better, but I don't think anybody but you cares. https://soundcloud.com/jeremy-me/violen

[xoxos]

the thing is,

discussing physical modeling synthesis kind of bores the sod out of me because so many posters are unaware of what has been done.

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/wav/vln-lin-cs.wav

this "commuted synthesis" model is ...moronically simple to build. (excuse lofi wav)

most people would be offended by how simple the model is, yet it's quite *effective*

and *ancient*

yet, there is *no form of it in vst*

because i do nor have the resources to prepare the impulse responses (i've tried and was offered some nice efforts from people who owned things, but i guess ccrma makes better impulses, maybe i should try again now that i can write fourier stuff).

see, all the plugin users basically want some stuff shiny magazines talk about, instead of attempting to discern the plausible methods for yielding a result from those who practice them. you all go off and beg, and i'll dwindle away, because remember, i'm just as bloodthirsty as any of you, not a nice person trying to help society not be pathetic.

that super crap implementation would sail above many things. remember my lovely attempt using a friction/stick-slip model? sounds alright over a few notes if the parameters are lucky. course it was an early attempt to translate julius' notes into a vst. anyway. i'll keep dreaming about a cooperative, synergetic society, you can let an old fool die and buy stuff from people who gear their businesses for profit.

[layzer]

I don't think anybody gives a hoot about what's a real violin anymore. They wouldn't know it if they heard it. If they want a real violin they will turn to samples and call it a day. Here's a violin that I threw together on spire in about an hour. I'm sure you could do better, but I don't think anybody but you cares. https://soundcloud.com/jeremy-me/violen

that sounds synthetic AF, i bet you could pull off a convincing acustic piano with spire as well.
its a good synth sound but nowhere near an acustic violin sound.

[Dasheesh]

And I'm sure a z1 sounds realistic as well.

[Jace-BeOS]

I have a Z1 and a VL 70m and would love vsts of them to really get into the editing possibilities more easily.

Me too, if you want a decent software editor for the VL70 get this, it's not a plugin but does everything:

http://www.vl70m-editor.com/site/

tbh I think the Z1 is easy to edit using the synth - it's so well designed but it also has a lot less depth in terms of params to edit than the VL - same is true of most of the modern physical modelling plugins. While several of the more dedicated ones (eg Pianoteq) do sound much more convincing for what they do, they come nowhere near the sophistication of the models in the VL70.

Thanks for posting this editor link. It's been a long time since I looked for such a thing for modern OSes and I was unaware of this new one.

[Jace-BeOS]

Getting used to that takes time: so it's never going to be a mass-market type of instrument.

The process of editing is probably extremely painful through that tiny LCD display... I don't even care to edit my QS8 with its LCD, let alone something as complex as a PM synth.

Applying the tech to better interfaces would be really really nice...

[Jace-BeOS]

a lot of people are on the same page, some don't want to be.. for those who are attempting to...

must've forgotten to mention another notable z1 track/patch...

with samples, every time you want a different instrument, you need a new ROM. the medieval reed bit was a good example.. for another track, i needed a "third grade violinist," where are you going to get a sample pack like that??? it took me a couple minutes to add some lfos et c. until i had a wonderfully squeaky, scratchy hacky violin part that reminded me of grade school

FingerFiddle on iOS will respond to increased surface area of your finger to produce harder bow pressure. This lets you drag very slowly with lots of pressure on the string model, creating some wonderfully awful scraping noises that only bad strings players (like me, with my cheap eBay violin) would make.

I LOVE physical modeling synthesis for this reason. I can't afford a cello, tuba, grand piano, and all manner of other acoustic objects... And certainly not to ABUSE them!

[Cinebient]

a lot of people are on the same page, some don't want to be.. for those who are attempting to...

must've forgotten to mention another notable z1 track/patch...

with samples, every time you want a different instrument, you need a new ROM. the medieval reed bit was a good example.. for another track, i needed a "third grade violinist," where are you going to get a sample pack like that??? it took me a couple minutes to add some lfos et c. until i had a wonderfully squeaky, scratchy hacky violin part that reminded me of grade school

FingerFiddle on iOS will respond to increased surface area of your finger to produce harder bow pressure. This lets you drag very slowly with lots of pressure on the string model, creating some wonderfully awful scraping noises that only bad strings players (like me, with my cheap eBay violin) would make.

I LOVE physical modeling synthesis for this reason. I can't afford a cello, tuba, grand piano, and all manner of other acoustic objects... And certainly not to ABUSE them!

Yes, it can do things, no big library can do and it is the best in this area....for 5 bucks or so
Samples sounds still better but you can't morph articulations in realtime the way you can do with this little app.
But it has no midi in/out which is a bit strange.

[fmr]

I don't think anybody gives a hoot about what's a real violin anymore. They wouldn't know it if they heard it. If they want a real violin they will turn to samples and call it a day. Here's a violin that I threw together on spire in about an hour. I'm sure you could do better, but I don't think anybody but you cares. https://soundcloud.com/jeremy-me/violen

Doesn't sound bad, but not really close to a violin. Anyone who ever heard a violin would immediately laugh.

Oh, and you are playing it in the cello register. I think you don't even know how to recognize a cello from a violin, and that is a serious problem

Samples are the solution until there isn't a good and manageable PM instrument. The same applies to any acoustic instrument. Some are easire to model than others, Some are more convincing when using samples than others. The more varied and complex the acoustic instrument is, the more difficult it is to get a convincing emulation with samples, but also it's more difficult to come up with a good enough yet still manageable model. But if/when someone can, that modeled instrument is much more expressive and playable than a sampled one.

[Dasheesh]

I don't think anybody gives a hoot about what's a real violin anymore. They wouldn't know it if they heard it. If they want a real violin they will turn to samples and call it a day. Here's a violin that I threw together on spire in about an hour. I'm sure you could do better, but I don't think anybody but you cares. https://soundcloud.com/jeremy-me/violen

Doesn't sound bad, but not really close to a violin. Anyone who ever heard a violin would immediately lauch.

Oh, and you are playing it in the cello register. I think you don't even know how to recognize a cello from a violin, and that is a serious problem

Samples are the solution until there isn't a good and manageable PM instrument. The same applies to any acoustic instrument. Some are easire to model than others, Some are more convincing when using samples than others. The more varied and complex the acoustic instrument is, the more difficult it is to get a convincing emulation with samples, but also it's more difficult to come up with a good enough yet still manageable model. But if/when someone can, that modeled instrument is much more expressive and playable than a sampled one.

Yes, the questions was...is spire like a z1? The answer is yes to me until someone tells me otherwise. I've never played a z1 one though. Like I said, if someone wants a realistic violin they are going to grab a sample and call it a day.

[Dasheesh]

...and the Z1 one is not a realistic violin.

[himalaya]

@Dasheesh,
That Spire 'violin' does not sound like a violin at all. You can actually do better with normal analog synthesis and a comb filter.
As to whether it matters or not, we can look at it from different points of view:

1. Yes, it matters as we are taking about Acoustic Modleing, so any example you provide in a thread where PM geeks conglomerate, better be good, at least if we are trying to 'nail' the sound. The Spire sound is nice in itself, falls short as an 'emulation'.

2. No, It does not matter, as we want to use Acoustic Modeling to create new sounds and accurate emulation is not paramount. Here, your example also falls short, since beside an interesting timbre, the sound is static and lifeless, the very antithesis of what an acoustic-modeled sound should aspire to. The timbre is not everything - this is what i and a few others have been trying to underline before - it is also the little performance artefacts that are of huge importance, and it's here where the VL-1 shines. Maybe it also falls short on the 1:1 emulation of acoustic sounds, but it offers unprecedented emulation of acoustic artefacts that no other PM instruments has managed to this day.

[Dasheesh]

Well here's the deal from my perspective, and I guess we have different views. The point of a piece like the Z1 (which is a board I've always had my eye on but never got to play on, and assumed was additive) is not to emulate a violin or what have you, it's to have violin timbres to play with to create new musical sounds...which is for me the point of synthesis literally. My demonstration (that was done at the kitchen table with a set of mini keys while baking spare ribs in the oven) was to show that spire had those timbres and similar architecture. For a more realistic experience, sample players are everywhere, and nobody cares anyway. Now that you guys have challenged me though.. I may have to sit down and see if I can do better... it's good practice after all.

[Gamma-UT]

I think most of the other people in this thread have an idea of how you might emulate characteristics of a violin using subtractive synthesis. This is not a new idea. It goes back to the very earliest days of subtractive synthesis - the reason for implementing square and saw waves lay in the harmonic series encountered in real-world instruments. I think one of the Sound on Sound series on sound design tried to do violin or cello emulation with a modular. There's a pretty good pack of presets from one sound designer for Zebra2 that does emulations of various orchestral instruments (though a number of them do use comb filters rather than standard subtractive synth filters).

Simply plugging a breath controller into a standard synth with a square-wave patch and mapping CC#2 to volume and filter will get you closer to a clarinet in a matter of seconds. Similarly you can use the breath controller or mod wheel to simulate bowing pressure. What it doesn't give you is the timbral flexibility you get from PM synthesis from making relatively minor changes to articulation.

The trouble is you're trying to tell people who use these things how they should be using them from the perspective of someone who has never used one. Plus, you apparently have no idea how any of the physical-modelling synthesis techniques work in the first place nor which synths implement them. It's hilarious.

[Dasheesh]

well, physical modeling is emulating energetic strings as oscillators has always been the way I thought about it. You guys have fun going in circles though if it makes you happy. If you want to play a violin pick up a violin. I'm a synthesizer player.