Cubase or StudioOne?

[troggg]

I don't want to come off as all-knowing or unsympathetic to your situation.

But I have been doing this since the 80s. While I'm not crazy active on forums like this, I've cruised them forever.

What I've observed in that time, usually on Windows machines since their components vary so much, is that there are situations where for no particular obvious reason a DAW PC just doesn't run smoothly with a specific software.

Many people who encounter this would like to believe there is something wrong with the DAW software they want to use. After all, in the real world, a "quick fix" by the software company would be a lot easier than going over their DAW PC component by component until whatever component is not happy can be identified and replaced. Or a driver updated.

However, sometimes going component by component ... or just getting a different PC altogether is just what has to be done. Is that fun? No, it kind of sucks. But when other people aren't experiencing the issues you're experiencing, they're running smoothly all day long, well, they were just luckier than you choosing components that had no difficulty running a particular software.

I am aware there are variations from machine to machine and software to software. Me, I would accept reality and figure out what's causing my system to not perform like known working systems ... rather than complaining about a specific software not working perfectly on a specific system -- even though it "should." Incompatibilities are just the way of the world.

At this point, you gotta switch hardware or software if you want to run smoothly.

My complaint about Studio One -- that it discriminates against hardware instruments -- is the same on every single system. Your complaint about its latency is not true on every single system, it's true on the occasional system, yours unfortunately being one of them.

If you truly want to run Studio One -- and for the most part it's a sweet system except for its treatment of hardware instruments -- you'll have to change things in your system. That's just the way it is.

[daw.one]

Your complaint about its latency is not true on every single system, it's true on the occasional system, yours unfortunately being one of them.

So what are your real time latency figures between the MIDI trigger receive and the generated sound in Studio One at 44.1kHz and a buffer size of 128 samples. I'm genuinely interested in that kind of information. They have more value to me (and maybe also the PreSonus team) than a general point of view.

For me this isn't an issue because I use Cubase when working with VST instruments. However I think Studio One could benefit from a lower response time, since it's the highest of any DAW I tested. Which is a shame because the accuracy of Studio One's MIDI equivalent is way ahead of traditional MIDI and very accurate.

[EnGee]

I did some comparisons about the Midi in Cubase 9 and S1 v3. I couldn't notice a difference between them really.

I did however set the Asio buffer to 128 with 44.1 kHz sample rate in both. I did checked the latency in their options:
S1v3:
Input Latency: 5.53 ms
Output Latency: 5.37 ms

Cubase 9:
Input latency: 5.533 ms
Output Latency: 5.374 ms

I did also tested my hardware midi through them by controlling my blofeld with my Casio PX-5S and recorded some midi (monitoring audio), and I couldn't feel there is a difference. Both responses accurately to my playing.

I use iTwo interface and its latest driver from Presonus. However, I prefer using Cubase little bit more than S1 because it has more composing tools mainly. Anyway, I consider them to be excellent DAWs. If I don't have Cubase, I would use mainly S1 and I would be happy using it, given that the instruments I use mostly, are not problematic

[chk071]

[aMUSEd]

I guess I've got more. Not only does S1 discriminate against "hardware instruments," it discriminates against keyboard players in general. Nothing wrong whatsoever with creating beats on tiny keyboards, but there are millions of keyboard players using 76 keys or 88 keys workstations -- meaning they're playing on big keyboard controllers which often have lots of onboard sounds. S1's message to keyboard players all over earth: too bad. You won't be able to adjust what you just heard. We don't care about your workflow. Dummy down cause that's what most people do.

Ummmm. Not sure what you're observing. I use hardware synths and 88-key keyboards all the time with Studio One Pro. Have been with S1 since 2010. Is there something in particular you have noticed?

D.

I'm not sure how much more specific I and other posters can be. As you know perfectly well if you use your hardware to control VSTis, no problem, a track appears in the mixer and you can immediately raise or lower the volume or change the panning, among other operations.

Conversely, if you record a part that's a sound onboard your hardware instrument, there will be no track of it created in the mixer ... and you will not be able to change volume without committing to audio.

Your workflow is now completely interrupted.

So what's OK about that? Especially in light of the fact Cubase has had this "feature" (quotes cause it's really a necessity) since SX was released around 2003.

I can't put it any simpler than that.

Not clear what the problem is, I can record my hardware synths in just the same way as in any host - create audio track, set line in, hit record.

[troggg]

Not clear what the problem is, I can record my hardware synths in just the same way as in any host - create audio track, set line in, hit record.

Congratulations on having superpowers, cause 3 other people who've responded here are unable to perform the feat. Nor can anyone who's complained about it in various threads on the S1 forum.

Please note none of us said you can't create an audio track for a hardware instrument.

And none of us said you can't record a hardware instrument "in just the same way as in any host."

And no one said you can't set line in.

The problem is nothing gets created in the mixer. Which makes
S1 completely unlike any other host.

Anyway, if you're happy with S1 despite the fact you can't adjust the volume of your hardware instrument through software until you commit it to audio, who am I to tell you to be unhappy.

[troggg]

So what are your real time latency figures between the MIDI trigger receive and the generated sound in Studio One at 44.1kHz and a buffer size of 128 samples. I'm genuinely interested in that kind of information. They have more value to me (and maybe also the PreSonus team) than a general point of view.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. You're allowed to be more interested in the numbers. Me, I only care if it's easy to record on the beat various ways (audio, hardware instruments, VST instruments). It's either a struggle or it isn't. If you want to argue less of a struggle is better than a big struggle, I'd respond the same way: if it's any kind of a struggle, something with your system doesn't play nice with S1.

Regarding the Presonus team, while I obviously object to their decision that hardware instruments are dinosaurs, it would still seem that they are dedicated to following standard protocols on the Windows side -- which seems to work out well for the vast majority of users. So they don't see what you see as a problem the same way. In their viewpoint, they did everything they could to make their software work as expected for the vast majority of PC users. If it doesn't, and you engage them, they're going to start asking questions about your system.

Have you contacted them? What do they say?

[daw.one]

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

I agree.

Have you contacted them? What do they say?

Yes I've reported it. They say the behavior is not an issue. Which makes sense because it's not a malfunction.

I did some comparisons about the Midi in Cubase 9 and S1 v3. I couldn't notice a difference between them really.

I doubt any human can "notice" such a small difference. If you want to notice a difference you should test it at 1024 samples, 44100Hz. You'll notice Studio One's output is far more consistent than Cubase, but the trade off will be an additional latency of 500 samples (11 ms).

I did however set the Asio buffer to 128 with 44.1 kHz sample rate in both. I did checked the latency in their options:
S1v3:
Input Latency: 5.53 ms
Output Latency: 5.37 ms

Cubase 9:
Input latency: 5.533 ms
Output Latency: 5.374 ms

This is reported by the driver and does not tell us how much time it takes from the moment the MIDI trigger is received and the sound is generated by the VST Instrument.

Here's a video with a simple test you can try yourself. Notice the reported latency by the driver is exactly the same across both hosts, while the actual output differs. At an ASIO buffer size of 128 samples and a sample rate of 44.1kHz, Studio One is responding more consistent, but always later than Cubase.
When increasing the ASIO buffer size it will be even more obvious.

I did also tested my hardware midi through them by controlling my blofeld with my Casio PX-5S and recorded some midi (monitoring audio), and I couldn't feel there is a difference. Both responses accurately to my playing.

I did not find any noteworthy anomalies across both host's MIDI I/O performance either.

[Robert Randolph]

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

I agree.

Have you contacted them? What do they say?

Yes I've reported it. They say the behavior is not an issue. Which makes sense because it's not a malfunction.

I did some comparisons about the Midi in Cubase 9 and S1 v3. I couldn't notice a difference between them really.

I doubt any human can "notice" such a small difference. If you want to notice a difference you should test it at 1024 samples, 44100Hz. You'll notice Studio One's output is far more consistent than Cubase, but the trade off will be an additional latency of 500 samples (11 ms).

I did however set the Asio buffer to 128 with 44.1 kHz sample rate in both. I did checked the latency in their options:
S1v3:
Input Latency: 5.53 ms
Output Latency: 5.37 ms

Cubase 9:
Input latency: 5.533 ms
Output Latency: 5.374 ms

This is reported by the driver and does not tell us how much time it takes from the moment the MIDI trigger is received and the sound is generated by the VST Instrument.

Here's a video with a simple test you can try yourself. Notice the reported latency by the driver is exactly the same across both hosts, while the actual output differs. At an ASIO buffer size of 128 samples and a sample rate of 44.1kHz, Studio One is responding more consistent, but always later than Cubase.
When increasing the ASIO buffer size it will be even more obvious.

I did also tested my hardware midi through them by controlling my blofeld with my Casio PX-5S and recorded some midi (monitoring audio), and I couldn't feel there is a difference. Both responses accurately to my playing.

I did not find any noteworthy anomalies across both host's MIDI I/O performance either.

Would you please send me an email, PM, find me on freenode, gtalk or something? My information should be easy to find. I go by my real name or AdmiralBumbleBee everywhere.

Thanks

[EnGee]

This is reported by the driver and does not tell us how much time it takes from the moment the MIDI trigger is received and the sound is generated by the VST Instrument.

Here's a video with a simple test you can try yourself. Notice the reported latency by the driver is exactly the same across both hosts, while the actual output differs. At an ASIO buffer size of 128 samples and a sample rate of 44.1kHz, Studio One is responding more consistent, but always later than Cubase.
When increasing the ASIO buffer size it will be even more obvious.

I did also tested my hardware midi through them by controlling my blofeld with my Casio PX-5S and recorded some midi (monitoring audio), and I couldn't feel there is a difference. Both responses accurately to my playing.

I did not find any noteworthy anomalies across both host's MIDI I/O performance either.

Interesting info and method to show it. Thank you.

I'll do some tests with few DAWs I have includes Cubase and Studio One, but I have a question.

In your video, you said that you've triggered Battery from external source, what do you mean? Can you tell me your setup please? I thought to use Blofeld (or Casio keyboard) audio out and record it, left and right channels to different DAWs and record, then analyse like you did. Is that a correct setup? Or I need to trigger a VSTi from a midi keyboard?

[EnGee]

I tried to do a similar test. The result is I could reach to a similar delay from S1 (to daw.one video I think).
Anyway, at 128 buffer size it is almost impossible for my hearing to detect a difference. I haven't tried at 512 or 1024 buffer size because I don't use them.

I recorded a midi file that triggers a drumbass sound from Blofeld, then recorded the audio in both hosts, once at a time with the same midi file and settings exactly, then I compared the results in Cubase:

1. First beat is a strange one! S1 appears on time, but Cubase's is delayed!

Cubase_S1_Timing_1.JPG

2. Here there is a difference (and continue on each beat):

Cubase_S1_Timing_2.JPG

3. In general you can't see/detect a difference in normal hearing and normal speed:

Cubase_S1_Timing_4.JPG

So, for me, S1 is still usable if I use 128 buffer size and with pop/rock/electronica songs. Sure, I'll be in trouble if I want to record my piano performance if I play piano like below : But I don't think he is concerned with DAWs and latency like KVR members

[daw.one]

I recorded a midi file that triggers a drumbass sound from Blofeld, then recorded the audio in both hosts, once at a time with the same midi file and settings exactly, then I compared the results in Cubase:

What I'm describing only relates to VST Instruments and only when the VST Instrument is triggered by a real time MIDI event. Not by a MIDI event that is playing back. The latter is compensated by the DAW's plugin delay compensation.

So the only moment you'll hear the latency I'm talking about is when playing a note on a MIDI controller that triggers a VST Instrument in real time. So the time it takes from the moment your finger presses a key/pad till the time the sound leaves the DAW. That latency is almost twice as long in Studio One compared to Cubase.

In your video, you said that you've triggered Battery from external source, what do you mean?

An external MIDI controller or a keyboard capable of sending MIDI events to the DAW.

On the previous page I explained the exact test I did: viewtopic.php?p=6695969#p6695969

Would you please send me an email, PM, find me on freenode, gtalk or something? My information should be easy to find. I go by my real name or AdmiralBumbleBee everywhere.

I will enable my PM.

[EnGee]

I recorded a midi file that triggers a drumbass sound from Blofeld, then recorded the audio in both hosts, once at a time with the same midi file and settings exactly, then I compared the results in Cubase:

What I'm describing only relates to VST Instruments and only when the VST Instrument is triggered by a real time MIDI event. Not by a MIDI event that is playing back. The latter is compensated by the DAW's plugin delay compensation.

So the only moment you'll hear the latency I'm talking about is when playing a note on a MIDI controller that triggers a VST Instrument in real time. So the time it takes from the moment your finger presses a key/pad till the time the sound leaves the DAW. That latency is almost twice as long in Studio One compared to Cubase.

I did some tests with most of my VST instruments (blofeld keyboard as my midi controller) in Studio One. I really didn't hear any lags with as fast as I go playing. In both, playing and recording, the timing is fine for me.

Maybe it is related to the midi controller? maybe to the VST instruments? However, I don't hear any problem in timing with my fav. and most used VST instruments in both Cubase and Studio One

[daw.one]

I did some tests with most of my VST instruments (blofeld keyboard as my midi controller) in Studio One. I really didn't hear any lags with as fast as I go playing. In both, playing and recording, the timing is fine for me.

So you played both hosts simultaneously and they responded exactly the same? That's interesting.
What kind of MIDI Device ports is the Blofeld using (Direct Music or Windows MIDI)

I see you also have Retrologue 2. Could you run this simple test for me?
Here is a zip with a Cubase CPR and a Studio One song.
Simultaneous_triggering_Retrologue2_in_Cubase_(left)_vs_Studio_One_(right).zip.
Both contain the same instance of Retrologue 2, but both panned hard to a different side.
Now open both Cubase and Studio One at the same time, arm both the Retrologue track and play a few C1 notes. Record the audio result in real time.

I included my result (128 samples - 44.1kHz): Result_simultaneous_triggering_of_C1_Note_Retrologue2_in_Cubase_(left)_vs_Studio_One_(right).wav
As you can hear my result sounds super stereo, wil in fact it should sound closer to mono with an occasional stereo'ish trigger.

Thanks.

[EnGee]

I did some tests with most of my VST instruments (blofeld keyboard as my midi controller) in Studio One. I really didn't hear any lags with as fast as I go playing. In both, playing and recording, the timing is fine for me.

So you played both hosts simultaneously and they responded exactly the same? That's interesting.
What kind of MIDI Device ports is the Blofeld using (Direct Music or Windows MIDI)

I see you also have Retrologue 2. Could you run this simple test for me?
Here is a zip with a Cubase CPR and a Studio One song.
Simultaneous_triggering_Retrologue2_in_Cubase_(left)_vs_Studio_One_(right).zip.
Both contain the same instance of Retrologue 2, but both panned hard to a different side.
Now open both Cubase and Studio One at the same time, arm both the Retrologue track and play a few C1 notes. Record the audio result in real time.

I included my result (128 samples - 44.1kHz): Result_simultaneous_triggering_of_C1_Note_Retrologue2_in_Cubase_(left)_vs_Studio_One_(right).wav
As you can hear my result sounds super stereo, wil in fact it should sound closer to mono with an occasional stereo'ish trigger.

Thanks.

No, sorry! I didn't run them at the same time! I tried, but I had an error message from Studio One about ReWire thing! Anyway, in real world why I should run Cubase and S1 at the same time? I can understand Live or Reason or even FL Studio running in ReWire slave to other hosts, but I don't find it useful to run Cubase and S1 at the same time.

Anyway, I'll try your method just to see, but I think I read somewhere that the latency normally increases when you run two hosts.

By the way, are you on Mac? Because I know running more than host in Mac has no problem at all.

I'll let you know the result of your project (if I can run it).