Behringer D Synth - Full Analog, Eurorack compatible, No Keys, 400$

[transmetropolitan]

For those of us familiar with the cloning debate from a guitar pedal perspective...

Tubescreamer clone (~$5-10 worth of components) + fancy paint job = $200 "boutique" overdrive pedal.

An equation that accounts for more smaller manufacturers output than it should do!

Whereas Roland/Boss have produced loads of interesting/innovative guitar pedals over the years and manufactured them at very fair prices too.

A lot of these arguments come down to how people feel generally about small vs bigger companies.

You can make all manner of theoretical arguments about whether cloning is right or wrong but (a) it will happen anyway if there is enough demand and (b) it's probably better to wait until we have the actual products to talk about.

[ghettosynth]

For those of us familiar with the cloning debate from a guitar pedal perspective...

Tubescreamer clone (~$5-10 worth of components) + fancy paint job = $200 "boutique" overdrive pedal.

An equation that accounts for more smaller manufacturers output than it should do!

What I think is interesting about that particular market is that so much of it is retro fetishism. It's not necessarily that the tube screamer is SO much better than other things, it just developed a following and then that became the thing to clone.

I had an original. I didn't buy it because it was cool, I bought it because it was the cheapest distortion pedal in the pawn shop at the time (back in the 80s). Cost me $30, tax included.

I kept it over the years because I liked it and it was useful, especially in front of other distortion pedals. Then at some point in the late 90s I heard about how it was all the rage. I found a TS-10, found the schematics, did the conversion, my ears couldn't tell the difference and, by then I was into rack mount stuff anyway. So I sold both of them. Got about $350 for the TS-808 and about $100 for the "modded" TS-10. I figured if I wanted it again I could just buy another TS-10.

The prices that they want for them today are just crazy. It's a f**king op-amp. There's absolutely nothing in there that you can't clone, down to the same vintage even, by stealing parts from a 1980s cassette deck.

[SJ_Digriz]

For those of us familiar with the cloning debate from a guitar pedal perspective...
Tubescreamer clone (~$5-10 worth of components) + fancy paint job = $200 "boutique" overdrive pedal.
An equation that accounts for more smaller manufacturers output than it should do!

People always confuse the cost to build it yourself and cost you have to make things in order to produce/sell/support enough to keep a business viable. There is an arc for parts, labor and facilities cost that is very difficult to overcome.

What I think is interesting about that particular market is that so much of it is retro fetishism.
........
I kept it over the years because I liked it and it was useful, especially in front of other distortion pedals.

I think you answered your own question. Most of these "fetishist" things are that way because they are useful and proven commodities. Price isn't the issue.

Also, it may be $20 in parts, although I would argue even the cheapest pedals I've made are in the $60 to $70 range by the time you get all the boxes, wire, solder, jacks, paint etc, but how long would it take you to make it? Based on my regular hourly wage, I'm losing good money making them myself. But, I like doing it so I do.

The Model D is proven great design. It is not a fetishist pursuit. It's like calling people fetishist because they keep wanting tires to be round.

[transmetropolitan]

For those of us familiar with the cloning debate from a guitar pedal perspective...
Tubescreamer clone (~$5-10 worth of components) + fancy paint job = $200 "boutique" overdrive pedal.
An equation that accounts for more smaller manufacturers output than it should do!

People always confuse the cost to build it yourself and cost you have to make things in order to produce/sell/support enough to keep a business viable. There is an arc for parts, labor and facilities cost that is very difficult to overcome.

Sure, but one also has the choice of buying a Joyo Vintage Overdrive for $30 which is mass produced with PCBs but sonically indistinguishable from the $200 "boutique" pedal.

My point is that this debate works in both directions.

[SJ_Digriz]

Sure, but one also has the choice of buying a Joyo Vintage Overdrive for $30 which is mass produced with PCBs but sonically indistinguishable from the $200 "boutique" pedal.

My point is that this debate works in both directions.

Actually no it doesn't. People constantly rail on about Moog and Boutique vendors ripping off customers due to greed. The proof given is $30 Joyo pedals for example. When in reality the mass production process is FAR more harmful to people in general from an economic standpoint. I'm not arguing against mass production by the way. I'm just saying that this discussion always ends up comparing apples to carburetors to determine which has the best bubblegum wrappers.

[Daags]

I'll just leave this here.

https://ask.audio/articles/behringer-re ... nth-clones

be still my beating heart.

[AnX]

The question is, how close to the originals are these new emulations/clones.

Time will tell i guess. Could be an interesting year...

[SJ_Digriz]

The question is, how close to the originals are these new emulations/clones.
Time will tell i guess. Could be an interesting year...

My guess is that they should be able to get damned close if not spot on. The circuits just aren't that complicated. The real issue will be the oft discussed durability/dependability.

I'm sure some will say it doesn't sound right because the oscillators don't go out of tune. Or if he makes oscillators that drift like crazy, people will bitch about unstable oscillators. And if he puts a slop function in, people will bitch about stealing from DSI and some inability to make "correct" oscillators. In other words, no matter how good it is, some will find reason to complain.

I do wonder if the 12v world of Eurorack will affect anything. If it will even follow that semi-standard.

For me, this is just going to be another possible cool option. The rebirth of hardware synths is AWESOME!!! And, just like with pedals I've paid too much for originals and boutique items. Now to see if B can be the Joyo of the synth world

[AnX]

Joyo pedals are good? I thought they had a bad rep....

(I havent tried them)

[SJ_Digriz]

Joyo pedals are good? I thought they had a bad rep....

(I havent tried them)

Actually, they have a few that are fine .. but only within a limited range. And, they suffer from quality control issues ... shocker. And, I was just using Joyo as an example. Tonecity, Mooer and a gazillion other companies are cranking simple circuit pedals out of those eastern factories. The point is, you give them a circuit they'll program the load for $1.50 and turn the stuffers loose. You get what you get.

[SJ_Digriz]

oops, hit return too soon.

With the Model D clone, the circuits are also "simple-ish". So, the ability of those same facilities to crank them out for cheap is in play.

[AnX]

Cheers. Might try out the flanger (local shop has them i think) Love a flanger.... and its got a pic of a Harrier on it...

[SJ_Digriz]

Cheers. Might try out the flanger (local shop has them i think) Love a flanger.... and its got a pic of a Harrier on it...

Just for giggles I made a pedal board that had all of the TC Electronic Mini pedals. I bought every one of them 2nd hand. I think the most I paid for $85 for any one pedal. And, found a used pedal train mini board for $45. The board is actually pretty awesome. But, no distortions/fuzzes ... although the spark is a great boost. Anyhow, I went through a lot of the mooer, tonecity and joyo dist pedals. They are all really good sounding, but in what I think is a very limited sweet spot. I ended up getting a Tumnus to be the final pedal on that board. So I was happy with all the cheap FX pedals, but went a little higher end with the distortion. But, I would have used the Tone City Black Tea if you made me choose a cheap pedal.

My point is that I'm not opposed to these clones. They have a place. And, with modern factory production processing, you can get some really good stuff. But, if you think that clone is going to be of the quality of an actual Model D .. you are fooling yourself. Is the difference in quality = $2500.00? Probably not. The ol' cost/performance ratio is in play for sure. But, is Moog scamming folks asking $3700 for a primarily hand built and tested Model D? No, it's the economy of scale for what they are producing.

[ghettosynth]

What I think is interesting about that particular market is that so much of it is retro fetishism.
........
I kept it over the years because I liked it and it was useful, especially in front of other distortion pedals.

I think you answered your own question. Most of these "fetishist" things are that way because they are useful and proven commodities. Price isn't the issue.

No no no, you're WAY overstating the case. I get that building doesn't equal driving a business. But my favorite pedal today is a much much more complex clone of a different pedal and it cost me about $30, brand new. Parent's point is solid in that tube-screamer clones are overpriced and tube screamers themselves are WAY overrpriced.

It was useful, but not more useful than the same components in a slightly different color box. You seem to have missed that part. TS-10s have jumped in value as well, but, there is a 10-fold difference in price for mint vintage units and the difference is, literally, a couple of slightly different passive components values.

Also, it may be $20 in parts, although I would argue even the cheapest pedals I've made are in the $60 to $70 range by the time you get all the boxes, wire, solder, jacks, paint etc, but how long would it take you to make it?

You'd think so, but, Joyo's clone is about $33. So there you go, that's about as cheap as you can get. It's not really $20 in parts BTW, that's a solid exaggeration. "I" can beat that price (per unit) just by buying the majority of parts in quantity 100.

Granted, PCB, box, and switches are not cheap, especially if you don't go cheap, so I'm not really judging boutique pedals that harshly, but, I agree with the parent that there's quite a bit of gravy in those $200 pedals that are simply clones with maybe a few passive changes.

The Model D is proven great design. It is not a fetishist pursuit. It's like calling people fetishist because they keep wanting tires to be round.

Sure it's a great design, but, it's absolutely fetishist. Your analogy doesn't hold water. The minimoog was just a snapshot of a basic Moog modular. Falling in love with the minutia is exactly the kind of retro-fetishism that I'm talking about. If Moog had done a few things slightly differently, you'd most likely be fetishizing those differences instead.

If you don't fall in love with the minutia, then it's just three standard oscillators and a ladder filter, a formula that's been done over and over again.

Fetishism rears its head at all levels in the market, especially when the true vintage stuff becomes unobtainable. Now all of a sudden there's solid interest in the TS-9/TS-10, when a number of years ago it was just old laundry and the TS-808 was the only "true" thing to have.

[ghettosynth]

The essence of this is that you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that indie devs are doing unique work and that their efforts should be respected when they are just cloning themselves. The reality is that circuits themselves aren't protected by IP law, and thank goodness for that because otherwise we'd be in a pretty sorry state today.

So, if you don't want your work cloned, then do something that rises to the level of patent worthy protection. Or, build the majority of your work in software so that it is subject to copyright protection.

The whining from vendors how enter in a market with simple electronic designs well knowing that their efforts can be easily AND LEGALLY cloned falls on deaf ears.

And, BTW, I'm just voicing out loud and in the open the thoughts that most people simply embed in their actions. I hear a LOT of whining about Joyo pedals, but I sure see a lot of them out there. People at some level are going to behave as rational creatures and buy the thing that gets the job done at the lowest price. There's no point whining about a vendor's inability to compete. If you can't sell your clone of the TS-9 for 5 to 10 times what Joyo sells there clone of the TS-9 for, that's not Joyo's fault and it's not "illegal competition." There's obviously enough demand to leverage low cost production methods, you've just failed to "execute" in the same way that Joyo can. Sell your customer, convince them that your "quality" is worth 5 to 10 times the price, should be easy if it's true, no?