KVR Audio

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.
Well, we have released freeware plug-ins in an effort to bring the market to its knees, but last time I checked our competitors still sold stuff for money

Lol
Maybe you should try harder.

But seriously, what should FabFilter do with its cheap iOS plugins?

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:53 pm

Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:48 pmIt could be possible that OpenGL will be dropped for ARM (did anyone checked?). If so, or when, this will definitely require a lot of work to fix.

I'm pretty sure OpenGL will be dropped. Apple is using their own GPU design, so why waste money on something they deprecated when there's Metal.

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:53 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:48 pmIt could be possible that OpenGL will be dropped for ARM (did anyone checked?). If so, or when, this will definitely require a lot of work to fix.
I'm pretty sure OpenGL will be dropped. Apple is using their own GPU design, so why waste money on something they deprecated when there's Metal.

It is still supported apparently, someone wrote that this is because of the webGL and Safari.

https://twitter.com/colincornaby/status ... 8348682240

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 pm

Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 pm
Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.
Well, we have released freeware plug-ins in an effort to bring the market to its knees, but last time I checked our competitors still sold stuff for money
Lol
Maybe you should try harder.
But seriously, what should FabFilter do with its cheap iOS plugins?

I've been on our dev account @ Apple today... looks like anyone can block the iOS Apps from running on Macs, but they have to take action.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:59 pm

Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 pm
Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:53 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:48 pmIt could be possible that OpenGL will be dropped for ARM (did anyone checked?). If so, or when, this will definitely require a lot of work to fix.
I'm pretty sure OpenGL will be dropped. Apple is using their own GPU design, so why waste money on something they deprecated when there's Metal.
It is still supported apparently, someone wrote that this is because of the webGL and Safari.

https://twitter.com/colincornaby/status ... 8348682240

Oi, unexpected! But I wouldn't put bets on performance.

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:01 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 pm
syntonica wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:34 pmauto-vectorization
I have yet to come across a compiler that does this for anything other than the most trivial loops. You have to give them so many hints, it's faster to just write vectorised code yourself.

(please prove me wrong... I'd love to spend my time on other things)

I'm sure you are correct. Unfortunately. Hinting seems pointless as all loops are targeted anyway.

In my case, I looked at all the reports that got spit out by the clang auto-vectorizer. Out of I don't remember how many loops it looked at (50+), many were untouched due to no discernable speed gains, many were vectorized and some were skipped due to "reasons". I looked at each of the loops with issues and was able to refactor one or two by hand, but the remainder would take major overhaul to vectorize for maybe only a tiny gain. I agree--stuffing and unstuffing registers is no fun!

Once I get to more to far more complex computations in my studies, I'll take another look at it.

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:01 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:59 pm Oi, unexpected! But I wouldn't put bets on performance.

Well, it would be good enough not to rewrite the graphics.

Youlean · Post by **Youlean** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:03 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 pm I've been on our dev account @ Apple today... looks like anyone can block the iOS Apps from running on Macs, but they have to take action.

Nice to know that. Thanks!

Cinebient · Post by **Cinebient** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:22 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 pm
Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Youlean wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am we can definitely expect drop in price for plugins because of the iOS plugins running on macOS.
Well, we have released freeware plug-ins in an effort to bring the market to its knees, but last time I checked our competitors still sold stuff for money
Lol
Maybe you should try harder.
But seriously, what should FabFilter do with its cheap iOS plugins?
I've been on our dev account @ Apple today... looks like anyone can block the iOS Apps from running on Macs, but they have to take action.

Interesting. But think about the shitstorm when the crowd knows you block them when they were excited for a moment

So maybe avoiding the iOS/ARM market but preparing for a switch might be a very good decision.

newsonicarts · Post by **newsonicarts** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:43 am

syntonica wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:34 pmUnless there's some hand-coded assembler in there, a recompile is all that is needed.

Its not that simple. The concern is the memory model.

If ARM has the same guarantees as x86 then all good. But from what I have heard, ARM has a much weaker memory model ('weaker' meaning less guarantees in read/write ordering).

PeterP_swe · Post by **PeterP_swe** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:41 am

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 pm
syntonica wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:34 pmauto-vectorization
I have yet to come across a compiler that does this for anything other than the most trivial loops. You have to give them so many hints, it's faster to just write vectorised code yourself.

(please prove me wrong... I'd love to spend my time on other things)

The closest I've found to generate actually good optimized SIMD output from "C" code is Intel Implicit SPMD Program Compiler. It's not a trivial drop in, but not that hard either.

Edit:
It supports NEON, but Intel doesn't like to talk about that for some reason.
It helps if you know how to program OpenGL Shading Language, the language dialect is similar.
It's open source and supports most platforms (Win, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS).

Benutzername · Post by **Benutzername** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:04 pm

Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 pm I've been on our dev account @ Apple today... looks like anyone can block the iOS Apps from running on Macs, but they have to take action.

User: Hey developer, I've got your plugin on my iPad and I love it. My computer now supports iOS apps but I can't find the plugin in the App Store or on your web site. Please Help!

Developer: We have blocked the plugin on your current device because we are greedy. To enable the functionality you've already paid for on your computer you'll have to invest five times the original price.

User: Sounds great! Please take my money!

Haptix · Post by **Haptix** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:29 pm

Benutzername wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:04 pm
Urs wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 pm I've been on our dev account @ Apple today... looks like anyone can block the iOS Apps from running on Macs, but they have to take action.
User: Hey developer, I've got your plugin on my iPad and I love it. My computer now supports iOS apps but I can't find the plugin in the App Store or on your web site. Please Help!

Developer: We have blocked the plugin on your current device because we are greedy. To enable the functionality you've already paid for on your computer you'll have to invest five times the original price.

User: Sounds great! Please take my money!

They could come up with some sort of 'crossgrade upgrade' or even better, bring the real plugin prices down and take the missing profit from the toy versions. Equal prices.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:31 pm

Noooo actually it will be like this. Pretty much.

User: Why don't you port your plugins to new Mac? Why are you so slow, you are greedy lazy developer aren't you?

Developer: We are having a hard time to adapt to new environment. Porting our code to a new hardware processor isn't exactly one click of a button.

User: You are a liar! Busted! Here is what Apple is saying. "According to Apple, the vast majority of apps will only take a few days of work to get them running natively. In some cases, it will just take recompiling them in Xcode."

Developer: sigh...

User: i need to go to KVR to tell the truth!! This developer is greedy incompetent bastard! Lame developer. Know shit about coding. People should be saved!!! Here i commmeeee

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:55 pm

newsonicarts wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:43 am
syntonica wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:34 pmUnless there's some hand-coded assembler in there, a recompile is all that is needed.
Its not that simple. The concern is the memory model.

If ARM has the same guarantees as x86 then all good. But from what I have heard, ARM has a much weaker memory model ('weaker' meaning less guarantees in read/write ordering).

As I understand it, ARM is more permissive in what may be reordered and when compared to what Intel CPUs do. While you can hint the compiler not to do any reordering, the CPU is still going to do its thing. I think my original statement still stands. Unless you're bit-twiddling or hand-coding large swaths in assembly, a recompile is all that is really needed. In general, the compiler and CPU can handle reordering instructions far better than us mere mortals.

Case in point, iOS has always used ARM and developers have been porting their plugins and algorithms over for several years now. Maybe one of them can chime in as to whether there are any major concerns here?

Apple will switch to ARM processors: what does it mean for plugin developers?