DP 11 is out

[antic604]

No, that would be a feedback path... I also wouldn't want to. Just unfold Kontakt in the mixer to see individual chains...

Yeah, I know ^^^

[apoclypse]

i hate saying this but Bitwig and Logics ways don’t help you any here. They both have uniquely closed off routing compared to Live and DP...

That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

Try this in Live:
- a MIDI clip with 4 consecutive quarter notes
- going through Cthulhu, to change it into chords
- going to Sylenth, to play the chords
- MIDI from Cthulhu transposed is 2 octaves, with added velocity randomisation
- sent to StutterEdit that'd process audio from Sylenth

Those are at least 4 tracks in Live. Probably more in DP.

That's also 1 track in Bitwig.

You don't have to have complex routing features, if you don't need it in practice.

simple =/= better in every case. You’re pointing out an area where Bitwig is easier by virtue of its more closed off routing, which is true, but using the same method look at your basic Kontakt multi instrument in Bitwig compared to Live or DP. It took me forever to figure out how to do that in Bitwig and it’s by no means intuitive or even good UX, it’s more or less a hidden feature that I had to find a youtube video to figure out. Compare that to Live or DP where you select a MIDI track and assign the output to Kontakts respective MIDI channel where the instrument exists. This is what i was talking about, Bitwig and Logic have similar non linear non recording studio based approaches to routing that would make DP, Live etc. seem weird in comparison.

I quite like the way Bitwig does it. I find it keeps everything nice and neat when mixing I don't need to have a whole bunch of audio tracks for something like Maschine or Battery just to get multiple outs. Bitwig does that for me. The same with Logic. Even S1 works in a similar way. Working with multis is my least favorite thing about Ableton Live. It's so clunky and tedious.

[pdxindy]

No, that would be a feedback path... I also wouldn't want to. Just unfold Kontakt in the mixer to see individual chains...

Yeah, I know ^^^

Yup... didn't see your reply until after I posted

Audio Receiver can also receive from individual Kontakt chains...

[machinesworking]

i hate saying this but Bitwig and Logics ways don’t help you any here. They both have uniquely closed off routing compared to Live and DP...

That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

Try this in Live:
- a MIDI clip with 4 consecutive quarter notes
- going through Cthulhu, to change it into chords
- going to Sylenth, to play the chords
- MIDI from Cthulhu transposed is 2 octaves, with added velocity randomisation
- sent to StutterEdit that'd process audio from Sylenth

Those are at least 4 tracks in Live. Probably more in DP.

That's also 1 track in Bitwig.

You don't have to have complex routing features, if you don't need it in practice.

simple =/= better in every case. You’re pointing out an area where Bitwig is easier by virtue of its more closed off routing, which is true, but using the same method look at your basic Kontakt multi instrument in Bitwig compared to Live or DP. It took me forever to figure out how to do that in Bitwig and it’s by no means intuitive or even good UX, it’s more or less a hidden feature that I had to find a youtube video to figure out. Compare that to Live or DP where you select a MIDI track and assign the output to Kontakts respective MIDI channel where the instrument exists. This is what i was talking about, Bitwig and Logic have similar non linear non recording studio based approaches to routing that would make DP, Live etc. seem weird in comparison.

I quite like the way Bitwig does it. I find it keeps everything nice and neat when mixing I don't need to have a whole bunch of audio tracks for something like Maschine or Battery just to get multiple outs. Bitwig does that for me. The same with Logic. Even S1 works in a similar way. Working with multis is my least favorite thing about Ableton Live. It's so clunky and tedious.

So it’s important here to clear what we’re discussing. The claim is that DPs UX is obtuse, there are obscure areas in all daws. I’m not making a claim about the usefulness of the feature but rather that Bitwig and Logic both do this instrument as MIDI Aux track routine for multi out instruments like Kontakt, and yes it’s nice and clean with smaller projects for sure, but if you want to see the horror of it in larger ones look up the workarounds for VEP projects in Logic. One area of seeming overt complexity all of a sudden becomes a huge strength. In DPs case a single VEP plug in can access over 700 midi tracks compared to the CPU hit that all of those individual multi instrument tracks creates in Logic or I’m sure Bitwig.

of course the best would be for a daw to address multis in either way, a simple MIDI track, or the hybrid instrument track, but I don’t know a DAW that does that.

[pdxindy]

So it’s important here to clear what we’re discussing. The claim is that DPs UX is obtuse, there are obscure areas in all daws.

I'm sure once you learn how to do stuff, DP works fine. However, DP is the only DAW I have tried where I was not able to figure out how to add an instrument to a track and record something. I had to go read the manual to figure out how to do the most basic of tasks.

[bcgreen24]

unpopular opinion.. this all should've been a 10.5 update.

Agreed. I really have no urge to upgrade to this...

Bryan

[summer2000]

I have DP's mixing board expanded on a separate monitor. How can I get DP to scroll to the selected track in the mixer from the tracks view?

[apoclypse]

i hate saying this but Bitwig and Logics ways don’t help you any here. They both have uniquely closed off routing compared to Live and DP...

That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

Try this in Live:
- a MIDI clip with 4 consecutive quarter notes
- going through Cthulhu, to change it into chords
- going to Sylenth, to play the chords
- MIDI from Cthulhu transposed is 2 octaves, with added velocity randomisation
- sent to StutterEdit that'd process audio from Sylenth

Those are at least 4 tracks in Live. Probably more in DP.

That's also 1 track in Bitwig.

You don't have to have complex routing features, if you don't need it in practice.

simple =/= better in every case. You’re pointing out an area where Bitwig is easier by virtue of its more closed off routing, which is true, but using the same method look at your basic Kontakt multi instrument in Bitwig compared to Live or DP. It took me forever to figure out how to do that in Bitwig and it’s by no means intuitive or even good UX, it’s more or less a hidden feature that I had to find a youtube video to figure out. Compare that to Live or DP where you select a MIDI track and assign the output to Kontakts respective MIDI channel where the instrument exists. This is what i was talking about, Bitwig and Logic have similar non linear non recording studio based approaches to routing that would make DP, Live etc. seem weird in comparison.

I quite like the way Bitwig does it. I find it keeps everything nice and neat when mixing I don't need to have a whole bunch of audio tracks for something like Maschine or Battery just to get multiple outs. Bitwig does that for me. The same with Logic. Even S1 works in a similar way. Working with multis is my least favorite thing about Ableton Live. It's so clunky and tedious.

So it’s important here to clear what we’re discussing. The claim is that DPs UX is obtuse, there are obscure areas in all daws. I’m not making a claim about the usefulness of the feature but rather that Bitwig and Logic both do this instrument as MIDI Aux track routine for multi out instruments like Kontakt, and yes it’s nice and clean with smaller projects for sure, but if you want to see the horror of it in larger ones look up the workarounds for VEP projects in Logic. One area of seeming overt complexity all of a sudden becomes a huge strength. In DPs case a single VEP plug in can access over 700 midi tracks compared to the CPU hit that all of those individual multi instrument tracks creates in Logic or I’m sure Bitwig.

of course the best would be for a daw to address multis in either way, a simple MIDI track, or the hybrid instrument track, but I don’t know a DAW that does that.

I know what the discussion is about and in your attempt to try paint DP as not obscure or difficult to get into you used Logic and Bitwig as examples. For your specific examples I don’t believe Bitwig or Logics behavior reaches the level of obscurity that is being discussed in relation to DP. My claim was that it's simple to use and setup (ie not obscure like you claim).

The thing is you keep veering off topic. One minute it's how obscure Bitwig's way of doing multi instruments is then you go off on tangent about assigning 700 midi tracks to a VEP instance. Okay, what does that have to do with the original discussion about how hard it is to get into DP? Maybe walk me through your thinking there.

[jonljacobi]

I like the independently resizable text and mixer. A lot of new stuff. Not my DAW but an impressive update imho.

[machinesworking]

@ apocalypse I’m not being obscure here, the topic is multi out instruments:

DPs way is to address the VSTi channels with a plain MIDI track, this is clunky to some. The advantage is when you’re addressing dozens or hundreds of multi instrument tracks. Think stems and CPU efficiency here. Same for the most part applies to the way Live addresses multis.

Compare that to Bitwig or Logics hybrid tracks, sure for a small project it’s nice and clean, but when you get into larger projects it eats into CPU. Plus coming from DP and Live it threw me for a loop at first.

In the bigger picture the argument seems to be that DP is hard to learn, I don’t disagree with that, but the other argument is that it’s dated or unnecessarily complicated, I disagree with that. It seems to me people have forsaken complexity for simplicity and a clean GUI, and IMO it’s for the worse for the most part. It’s why I switched from Logic 8 to DP 7. Logic is still complex, but some things are just mind boggling to someone that used it since v4 like the fact you have to turn on “advanced features”. Anyway it’s all good, I’m just a big fan of DP, why wouldn’t you expect me to defend it?

[summer2000]

I have DP's mixing board expanded on a separate monitor. How can I get DP to scroll to the selected track in the mixer from the tracks view?

Apparently this is not possible. I read a post over at motunation where someone was asking the same thing back in 2017. Definitely a show stopper for me since I work with many tracks (over 50 on average) and having to scroll through them to locate a specific track would certainly be annoying.

[apoclypse]

@ apocalypse I’m not being obscure here, the topic is multi out instruments:

DPs way is to address the VSTi channels with a plain MIDI track, this is clunky to some. The advantage is when you’re addressing dozens or hundreds of multi instrument tracks. Think stems and CPU efficiency here. Same for the most part applies to the way Live addresses multis.

Compare that to Bitwig or Logics hybrid tracks, sure for a small project it’s nice and clean, but when you get into larger projects it eats into CPU. Plus coming from DP and Live it threw me for a loop at first.

In the bigger picture the argument seems to be that DP is hard to learn, I don’t disagree with that, but the other argument is that it’s dated or unnecessarily complicated, I disagree with that. It seems to me people have forsaken complexity for simplicity and a clean GUI, and IMO it’s for the worse for the most part. It’s why I switched from Logic 8 to DP 7. Logic is still complex, but some things are just mind boggling to someone that used it since v4 like the fact you have to turn on “advanced features”. Anyway it’s all good, I’m just a big fan of DP, why wouldn’t you expect me to defend it?

No you diverted the topic to be about multi-instrument setups but the original topic was about DP being difficult to get into. However the topic you and I are discussing is about multi setup and how Logic and Bitwig differ from DP. When I tried to address that you said in your first sentence that wasn't what the discussion was about. So imo you need to make up your mind on that front.

That being said, can you elaborate by what you mean by "it eats into CPU"? How does it do that in Logic/Bitwig vs DP? I'm not familiar with DP so I don't know how it differs significantly from what you can do in Logic/Bitwig in-terms of how you route tracks to multis.

[machinesworking]

@ apocalypse I’m not being obscure here, the topic is multi out instruments:

DPs way is to address the VSTi channels with a plain MIDI track, this is clunky to some. The advantage is when you’re addressing dozens or hundreds of multi instrument tracks. Think stems and CPU efficiency here. Same for the most part applies to the way Live addresses multis.

Compare that to Bitwig or Logics hybrid tracks, sure for a small project it’s nice and clean, but when you get into larger projects it eats into CPU. Plus coming from DP and Live it threw me for a loop at first.

In the bigger picture the argument seems to be that DP is hard to learn, I don’t disagree with that, but the other argument is that it’s dated or unnecessarily complicated, I disagree with that. It seems to me people have forsaken complexity for simplicity and a clean GUI, and IMO it’s for the worse for the most part. It’s why I switched from Logic 8 to DP 7. Logic is still complex, but some things are just mind boggling to someone that used it since v4 like the fact you have to turn on “advanced features”. Anyway it’s all good, I’m just a big fan of DP, why wouldn’t you expect me to defend it?

No you diverted the topic to be about multi-instrument setups but the original topic was about DP being difficult to get into. However the topic you and I are discussing is about multi setup and how Logic and Bitwig differ from DP. When I tried to address that you said in your first sentence that wasn't what the discussion was about. So imo you need to make up your mind on that front.

That being said, can you elaborate by what you mean by "it eats into CPU"? How does it do that in Logic/Bitwig vs DP? I'm not familiar with DP so I don't know how it differs significantly from what you can do in Logic/Bitwig in-terms of how you route tracks to multis.

MIDI tracks in DP take zero CPU, when you get into dozens or hundreds of instances of the instrument/aux/hybrid way Logic handles multi output AUi's you start getting a CPU hit. In the description I gave DP has a special MAS (their audio engine) VEP plug in that can handle over 700 MIDI inputs. If you were to be doing orchestral or scoring work for a TV show like this one guy who hosted a webinar on his crazy set up for the crime drama he scored, where he's using literally a 1000 MIDI tracks so while scoring every library he owns is instantly available as he composes. This is all hooked up to three slave PCs running VEP and the MIDI tracks take no CPU hit out of DP, leaving him to be able to use FX on the master.
So compare this to Logic, where there's a tutorial on how to wire in external MIDI tracks in the Environment to multi instruments to not kill your CPU and save the output for stems. Every unintuitive workaround also has someone like the guy mentioned above who would go ballistic if the next version of DP set up multis the way Bitwig and Logic do.

You're getting lost in the weeds here, I didn't divert the topic, I mentioned that not everything is straight forward in DAWs, and that personally I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive, even if there are reasons for it. This was in response to the constant insistence by people that DP is unintuitive and obtuse.

The explanation as to why DP handles MIDI as separate tracks can be viewed through that same lens, multi instruments can be set up that address multiple Sequences in DP, or VEP instances, and because of the way V-Racks and DP handles VEP it's far more CPU efficient, even if it's cluttered when you're only addressing a single multi with 8 outs per say, that's where Logic and Bitwigs way is better.

It's one of those things, you should hear the ranting about how unintuitive Logic is on DP forums, because the method is so different. I did find Logic to be harder to learn than Cubase years ago when I was looking at them as replacements for DP, Cubase was closer in concept to DP than Logic for me, but I went with Logic because I could tell that once you got fluid with it, it was going to be a super fast workflow.

[machinesworking]

So it’s important here to clear what we’re discussing. The claim is that DPs UX is obtuse, there are obscure areas in all daws.

I'm sure once you learn how to do stuff, DP works fine. However, DP is the only DAW I have tried where I was not able to figure out how to add an instrument to a track and record something. I had to go read the manual to figure out how to do the most basic of tasks.

Contextual menus have been in DP since version 7 at least. Right clicking on the Tracks window gives a menu with Add Instrument with Options. It couldn't be easier really, but if you're talking earlier than v7 it was a Menu item up top and you have to manually add a MIDI and instrument track and point the MIDI out at the instrument etc. So then, yeah it was too different than the way Live, Logic, Bitwig etc. do VI's to grasp right away, unless you're coming from Pro Tools which did it the same way.

[pdxindy]

I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive

In what way is Bitwig's handling of multi-timbral instruments unintuitive? Or are you still insisting your out of date knowledge is current?