Ableton Live 4 versus Cubase

[headquest]

The product that REAL snobs use.

Tsa - tsa - tsa. You haven't been to nuendo forums lately.

Just don't tell a nuendo user he's in fact using a Cubase LX

In the Future Music "Sequencer Chart" Nuendo is currently at number 8...

...lower than Making Waves at number 7

See this thread:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=775597

Cubase SX3 is now at number 4= ....

...while Live 4 is at number 1 (and has a score of 47/50 which will be hard to topple!

[SJ_Digriz]

YAY!!! Headquest and Invitia finally reply with some sense.

I stand my ground that Live is entirely capable of traditional linear recording and sequencing. Just because it has other stuff sat on top, doesn't mean you have to use it.

Quincy, you still are missing the point. Just because it can linear record doesn't mean its good at it. I can tell you from trying that it isn't. You go out of your way to point out the things that Cubase doesn't do well with loops. Well, Cubase has the ability to work with loops, it just isn't good at it. It's the same argument in reverse.

I'm not going to go through all the other pro/contra again. Just wanted to see if you can see that which host to use is entirely based on what you want to do with it, how much money you have, what type of music you are shooting for, do you want to have production and post production built it, and a hundred other things to boot.

[headquest]

YAY!!! Headquest and Invitia finally reply with some sense.

You're too kind!

[SJ_Digriz]

YAY!!! Headquest and Invitia finally reply with some sense.

You're too kind!

heh, now I feel like an idiot. I didn't mean to imply that your prior posts were stupid. I meant that you put down rational arguments both ways in those 2 posts without personal attacks or fanboyisms. I appologize for an unintentional slam.

[headquest]

YAY!!! Headquest and Invitia finally reply with some sense.

You're too kind!

heh, now I feel like an idiot. I didn't mean to imply that your prior posts were stupid. I meant that you put down rational arguments both ways in those 2 posts without personal attacks or fanboyisms. I appologize for an unintentional slam.

Hey, no offense taken! We're cool

[mook]

you are comparing two things that are fundamentally different in their approach to producing.

live is great for just getting in there and messing around. creating grooves is a snap, and many find it extremely intuitive. it has been said live is not a sequencer, but a musical instrument.

cubase is so much more powerful than live. unfortunately with power comes difficulty. if you put the time in cubase will be a formidable tool. it is a full fledged sequencer.

also if you are that broke then here's a hint: go sign up for a pe class at your local jc. then take your student schedule or student id card and use it to get academic pricing on software. Hell you might even be able to afford both. (http://www.studica.com is one place to check for example)

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[paradiddle]

* Only one person replied that they were a traditionaly capable musician. So, I am left with my impression that it is mostly a tool for dance genre composition. Not exclusively, but primarily. NOTE I DIDN'T SAY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD.

I'm also a traditional musician, well drums. and a little bit of trumpet and keys. I can read/write music (only drums and never took a course) and been playing for 18 years, lots of live gigs and a good amount of recording. I still use live 4 and also logic.

I use live 4 mainly for doing remixes, sound design, on the fly band arrangements or just using to practice drums/keys along with it. I have an octopad so I can trigger stuff from live.

When it comes to recording a band, I wouldn't use that though, I'd go for fully functional DAW like logic/cubase/ect. They are much more appropriate for that purpose.

[mike.0]

cubase is so much more powerful than live. unfortunately with power comes difficulty. if you put the time in cubase will be a formidable tool. it is a full fledged sequencer.

This is fully wrong.. Live and Cubase have exclusive features. Either is more powerful, depending on your intention.

[scocat42]

This has been quite a thing to watch being my first post ever to a forum and it has been very helpful in making my decision.

This forum helped me to evaluate myself and the style I like to work in, or at least feel what might work best for me. Since I have never completed a full song I really like the idea of maybe trying to use a new method.

The big factors that lead me to purchase Ableton Live 4 are:

1. I was able to get the demo working very quickly with my VM3100 digital mixer, QS8, and being to record audio and my acoustic guitar. Plus go through the tutorials, get the manual online, etc.

2. This forum gave me insight and hepled me evaluate how I personally create music and let me know that they both are very capable and powerful applications and that they both have their strengths.

Thanks again to all who replied.

[pHz]

hey - a K-v-R 1st ... a satisfied customer !!!

heehee

good luck with your new toy mate - be sure to come back and post some tracks in the music cafe when you start to finish stuff

slainte rob

[MadKhz]

Hi All I've been messing with some of my friends computers one has live one has Cubase SX version something-or-other

here is what I have noticed (and I do not use either, I am a PT man, BTW):

Ease of Use/Manual/Tutorials
Live
Easy to get going FAST. The manual and training for it are really good, I sat down, did the tutorial, read parts of the manual my mate had and I was up and using the "cool" stuff immediatly, within 1 hour. If you are new and don't want to spend a couple of weeks getting the hang of a sequencer, Live is for you.

Cubase

Is not as intuitive. No, I am not a PC sequencer noob, but when I said "I want this to sound like this" I could get Live to spit out right what I wanted, Cubase was slow because it was back and forth to the manual.

Decision: Live

Power

Live
The features are nice, recording is cool and you can add effect easily, I also have not seen a VST/VSTi plug that did not work in live (although my friend is relegated to the "freebie" realm of plug ins). The interface piles on features, and although at a glance it seems like some may be spurious, a little messing around and it all seems to come together like Voltron. The designers really wanted to make a tool that could go gig, and then at the same time after the gig ended, go right into working on the latest track for your LP on the train ride home @ 5AM. If I was on a laptop, I'd go Live for that alone.

Cubase
Insanely powerful, looping is not the best, but most people get by fine. Did I mention Insanely powerful? more so then live, but if you are doing certain kinds of things, such as sequencing outboard, using many outboard effects units, or running mad keyboards Cubase can get kinda tedious.

Live seems to work a lot like Cool Edit, for getting stuff down if you like to use outboard gear. Cubase is by far the more powerful sequencer. So, if you like a simple uncluttered look, and do all your stuff outboard, like sequence on say, a Triton or Motif, then Cubase may be too much "Car" for you and you'd just have a lot of features you would never bother to learn because you don't need it.

decision: Cubase

Overall

Live
I think the magazines are correct, Live is the future of sequencing, when you can gig with something and use the same thing to mix, sequence, record all your studio work. people are demanding that now, they want an all in one piece of kit for the $$$$ they gotta put on the wood. Once Live gets its act together and adds better beat slicing tools, does a litte better on the slice tempo detection and gets the option to say, export tracks to other audio apps easily, it will become the standard.

Now that said, my friends are at this very moment standing over my shoulder having a very heated argument about just this .
All I can say as a neutral party is they use the programs for different things. If you are into loops, I would go with live, if you are into doing all your work from sequencing down to mixdown in a PC, go with Cubase. Either way, GO MAKE BEAUTIFUL MUSIC!!!!!!

[headquest]

Hi All I've been messing with some of my friends computers one has live one has Cubase SX version something-or-other

here is what I have noticed (and I do not use either, I am a PT man, BTW):

Good analysis (i used to use Cubase, now I'm with Live 4)

Once Live gets its act together and adds better beat slicing tools, does a litte better on the slice tempo detection and gets the option to say, export tracks to other audio apps easily, it will become the standard.

To edit an audio clip using Audition, SOund FOrge, Wavelab, etc, you double click on the clip and then from the Sample tab click on Edit. THis will take you straight to the Audio Editing software of your choice (you choose under Options what your prefered editor is).

ANd you export audio by rendering to .wav in the usual way.

I use Live and AUdition and I must say I find they integrate very well indeed.

[visa tapani]

Live's Midi sux. I am a heavy vsti user. There's my reason.

Could you expand on this? I'm a heavy midi/VSTi user as well, so this is very important to me. How does midi in Live suck? What does it lack that SX has, or what is slower / more tedious in Live?

This thread has arousen a strong interest in me towards Live. My problem has always been that I don't get tracks finished - I have hundreds of unfinished 20-60 sec loops lying on my hd that are waiting to be expanded into full tracks. I don't do traditional recorded music - in fact, I don't even have a microphone plugged into my computer currently, the only self-made recordings I bring to my music are field recordings done witn my minidisc/mic combo. I work mostly with modern experimental electronic music / glitch / IDM / ambient and ocassionally with dance music like d'n'b or electro.

I used to be a heavy tracker user, and I recently moved into Cubase. The problem is, I haven't really gotten much finished yet. I often do/create things in small clips which I then edit, arrange and process to a great extent. Live seems like it just might be what I need. Besides, it has Robet Henke from Monolake - one of my favorite artists - on its team of developers.

However, if its midi editing and VST automation is clumsy, and if it does not have full delay compensation, it might not suit my needs after all.

I need to be able to
- do complex and detailed midi editing quickly
- compose and arrange with my sequencer by moving and tweaking sections of midi and audio data
- use lots of VST-effects and route and automate them flexibly
- do lot of VST-automation smoothly
- bounce sections to audio quickly and easily for further detailed editing (or for loading them into a sampler later)
- in the end do lot of midi and automation editing so that no section actually loops, but everything changes all the time everso slightly

What do you think, would Live be the tool for this?

[pHz]

Live's Midi sux. I am a heavy vsti user. There's my reason.

Could you expand on this? I'm a heavy midi/VSTi user as well, so this is very important to me. How does midi in Live suck? What does it lack that SX has, or what is slower / more tedious in Live?

cant comment on this since i dont know cubase but for me live4s MIDI editing and handling is somewhere between tracktion and FL-studio ... but see below ...

This thread has arousen a strong interest in me towards Live. My problem has always been that I don't get tracks finished - I have hundreds of unfinished 20-60 sec loops lying on my hd that are waiting to be expanded into full tracks. I don't do traditional recorded music - in fact, I don't even have a microphone plugged into my computer currently, the only self-made recordings I bring to my music are field recordings done witn my minidisc/mic combo. I work mostly with modern experimental electronic music / glitch / IDM / ambient and ocassionally with dance music like d'n'b or electro.

youre coming from a similar place (genre-wise) to me and i use live4 so ...

I used to be a heavy tracker user, and I recently moved into Cubase. The problem is, I haven't really gotten much finished yet. I often do/create things in small clips which I then edit, arrange and process to a great extent. Live seems like it just might be what I need. Besides, it has Robet Henke from Monolake - one of my favorite artists - on its team of developers.
However, if its midi editing and VST automation is clumsy, and if it does not have full delay compensation, it might not suit my needs after all.

MIDI editing is basic but definitely NOT clumsy ... i love its automation but some people dont like it ... and yeah - PDC is a bit of an omission in the current version ...

I need to be able to
- do complex and detailed midi editing quickly

quickly YES ... detailed and complex is subjective - for the level of MIDI editing i do (variations on patterns and timing stuff mostly) its plenty powerful enough but if you want a full editable events list then you would find it lacking i guess

- compose and arrange with my sequencer by moving and tweaking sections of midi and audio data

for this kind of work i would say that live4 is just about the best out there (particularly on the audio side) ... the fact that its engine does it all on the fly is what sets it apart ...

- use lots of VST-effects and route and automate them flexibly

automation is great (apart from the already-mentioned issue of only being able to see one automation curve per track at a time) and the new routing system is pretty powerful too

- do lot of VST-automation smoothly

see above

- bounce sections to audio quickly and easily for further detailed editing (or for loading them into a sampler later)

not live4s greatest strength for me at the moment TBH (my number 2 request after full PDC would be per track and per clip rendering) ... you basically have to mute / solo / select areas to render anything other than the whole mix which is a bit fiddly for me ...

- in the end do lot of midi and automation editing so that no section actually loops, but everything changes all the time everso slightly

this is fundamentally my workflow too and i find live4 great for it ...

What do you think, would Live be the tool for this?

honest answer is yes and no ... some things you would find live4 excellent for while others would mean adjusting the way you work to fit the apps (current) weaker areas ...

... i know its a fairly large download but as with everything - try the demo

slainte rob