KVR Audio

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:24 am

YBaCuO wrote:For example, listen to this Violin Sonata by Franck, again all with GPO, I tried and shuddered in horror when trying Synful ...

Franck Violin Sonata with GPO
http://www.wusik.com/song.php?id=362

Maybe I should post my attempt?

Please do, it's only fair to GPO.

/Yoss

ultrassom · Post by **ultrassom** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:32 am

Synful

is a Mac version anywhere on plans?

Would a standalone app solve some of the delay problems?

Ruben

omicrom · Post by **omicrom** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:06 am

This thing sounds pretty good but way too expensive for my wallet. I guess I will spring for G.P.O. @ $249.00

YBaCuO · Post by **YBaCuO** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:39 am

For fast passages, Synful does do something interesting.

But a lot more work needs to be done on the sustain.

A Franck Violin Sonata with Synful Violin
http://www.wusik.com/song.php?id=403

Franck Violin Sonata with GPO
http://www.wusik.com/song.php?id=362

My ears still hurt from working on this piece with the Synful ...

(other GPO examples at http://ybacuo.wusik.com/

YBaCuO

moosethree · Post by **moosethree** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:09 am

An opinion: There is a huge market for less that 100% real....expressive, musical, economical, efficient, effective, novel.....I think this puppy needs to be skillfully
marketed to the largest market possible....as soon as possible, and then "perfected" later.......when I see criticisms of elements of $3000 libraries...I go oh my....and realize the pefectionists will never be satisfied.....and this product has something to offer the larger market of those not looking for perfection but for PHUN and playability....and musicality.......and Synful is already there....if the jump on board price was right....build a community that is involved with its development...then refine...but give me a playable Celtic Flute, Soprano Sax, Jazz Trumpet and Irish Fiddle while the Orchestral stuff gets refined!

YBaCuO · Post by **YBaCuO** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:44 am

.but give me a playable Celtic Flute, Soprano Sax, Jazz Trumpet and Irish Fiddle while the Orchestral stuff gets refined!

My sentiments exactly.

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:33 pm

Thanks again, YbaCuO.

I’ve listened to both versions a few times now and the Synful violin didn’t do as badly as I feared from your description. In fact, I still think it comes out on top in this comparison, simply because it sounds more alive. This thread has made me realise how important these note transitions are to the overall perception of the performance, at least to me. Even if the basic, sustained tone of the Synful violin is inferior it still sounds more like a ”real” instrument.

BTW, have you tried reducing the sustain noise on the Synful violin? I’ve found that the default setting is a bit high for my taste.

/Yoss

René · Post by **René** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:06 pm

Thanks YbaCuo, cool demos.

What I feel most exciting about Synful is that after watching the sampling scene evolution in the last 10 years, I see it pretty static.

Even when I think the VSL legato and alternation tools were a real step ahead, I can't imagine a next step for sampling which would really surprise me.

I agree that the sustain in the strings on Synful can't match the sound quality of a contemporary recording, but I believe that doesn't matter: we can use sampling today, and possibly add a bit of the new violin on some spicy solo.

I also agree that budget-buyers looking for instant gratification when rendering an orchestral midi file should look for GPO, Opus or Silver instead. I believe it's really wrong to think that Synful would compete in that league. No matter how the product title is, the product is what the product is.

Synful gives a fresh signal of 'something' that could be the future. Good news for me.

-René

cptgone · Post by **cptgone** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:08 pm

I've waited for something like this for years.

Now that it's here I already have GPO.

I'd love to buy this but it's too expensive right now for me.

YBaCuO · Post by **YBaCuO** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:31 pm

New version of the Synful Franck Violin Sonata with the transient gain and sustain noise sliders decreased to about -7.0. In addition, the calculated swell on each note was doubled to 0-20 in midi cc#7 units. But clearly the swell is not correct for Synful. The breathy-ness and the "sustain noise" problem is much better than before. And obviously, if Synful was performed rather than using an existing calculated and converted midi file, results would be improved. (Just a comment: both Synful versions had a slight note overlap to trigger the Synful legato feature).

My comments earlier still apply. That space between notes is addressed with Synful. This is very exciting. The overall sound is still a little weak. I would still prefer Synful developed towards improving the solo string sounds rather than poorly modelling a complete orchestra - and then sell just the solo strings for less, etc for other instruments ...

By the way, what reverb is used in Synful? this needs to be addressed too.

New Version Synful Franck Sonata
http://www.wusik.com/song.php?id=403

Old GPO version
http://www.wusik.com/song.php?id=362

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:53 pm

Eric Lindemann has mentioned the possibility of packaging the strings separately – I’d definitely be interested in that.

/Yoss

Christian Schüler · Post by **Christian Schüler** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:40 pm

I downloaded the demo because the announcement of Synful sounded promising. However I was disappointed. The sound of the instruments has all the PSOLA like artifacts that we know from speech synthesizers.
Anyways kudos to Eric, it's a refreshing approach that could be developed further!

However, for the record, Synful runs fine in EnergyXT.

Here is the comparison.
It is a favourite orchestral piece of mine, the ouverture to the 1991 movie Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.

This is a passage from the original:

http://www.ariescode.com/scratch/original_robin.mp3

As you can see, this piece is quite demanding in terms of articulation and dynamic range. I have done a rendition with the demo version of Synful, from scratch. I had to tweak the harmonics and the release and transient noise settings. There's 10 voices (Bass, Cello, Viola, Violin, 2 Horn, 2 Trumpet, Trombone and Oboe). Each voice was recorded with the right hand playing and the left and at the volume slider. It took me 4 hours, with a little editing afterwards.

I don't want to be unfair, but overall, Synful sounds like a honkey-tonk orchestra ...

EDIT:
I re-recorded parts of this tune and played it back without Delay for Expression. The results are far more predictable this way. Also, your velocity has to go really up to 127 for the brasses to kick some arse

http://www.ariescode.com/scratch/synful_robin.mp3

Here are 2 other versions, one is a very old version (dates back to 1997) which I did with a Roland JV1080. So you can see what can be done with a pure rompler with custom programmed patches.
The other is a version where I tried myself at physical modeling, using my own developed algorithms. Overall it sounds a little too clean, but I am quite satisfied with the brass articulation. Too bad I cannot make a VSTi from this, because of the patent situation

.

http://www.ariescode.com/scratch/roland_robin.mp3

http://www.ariescode.com/scratch/physical_robin.mp3

Since I do not own GPO, VSL or any other of the "big" sample libraries, maybe somebody else could go for a try at this piece. I would definitely be interesed in a GPO rendition of this Robin Hood passage. (No, I don't have a score, you need to guess the notes for yourself, or mail me, and you can get my EXT file.)

Cheers

-SPYRO- · Post by **-SPYRO-** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:52 pm

Indeed it sounds dead on Synful.

one question, did you turned on "delay for expression" in your example? (I can't hear clean phrases)

Just for curiosity

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:11 pm

Well, as a full-fledged orchestra Synful is clearly not going to cut it as it stands but that’ s not how I would use it. This is obviously a collection of solo instruments where especially the strings are capable of delivering some very impressive performances that could add very nicely to an orchestral sample set.

/Yoss

Christian Schüler · Post by **Christian Schüler** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:07 pm

I have used the "delay for expression" setting.
It a bit unpractical, because you need to turn it off during recording, and then you're never quite sure what the result is if your turn it back on.

Also, I have not quantized, because an orchestra does not quantize

. The other versions are not quantized also.

Synful Orchestra - wow!