Which sequencer has the BEST midi implementation?

[Kalamata Kid]

Most if not all the MFX for me at one time or another will be used. MFX are ready to use and operate real time. No programming or cryptic lingo required. This simplicity is important to me. I like to experiment in midi so I find MFX very useful. The Cubase Logical Editor generally does not operate in real time. The similar Input Transformer works in real time.

[basic channel]

Well, I thought I had found my bliss with Live, but I've finally decided that I just cannot live with its shoddy MIDI implementation. MIDI editing is very important to me! For that reason I have a very simple question: which sequencer has the best MIDI implementation of them all?

I suppose I should add "...except Logic", since I am on Windows.

Is it Cubase? I have heard Tracktion both praised and condemned in harsh words for its midi. How about even Project 5? I'm willing to consider any and every sequencer, as long as it will let me be a MIDI editing ninja!

To be clear: I really don't want to make sacrifices and use workarounds and otherwise "settle" for second-rate midi editing, so please keep that in mind before suggesting your favorite sequencer!

thanks!

Podium has pretty good midi support (sysex etc.), especially for control of external devices.

Very responsive developer as well.

BC

[Sascha Franck]

Give me an example of an MFX that is important

The arpeggiator for instance.
I don't need them (unless they're build into the instrument), but some people may like fooling around with such stuff.
And, regarding that, Logics arpeggiator is ancient and not working properly with virtual instruments either.

[popsych]

Give me an example of an MFX that is important

The arpeggiator for instance.
I don't need them (unless they're build into the instrument), but some people may like fooling around with such stuff.
And, regarding that, Logics arpeggiator is ancient and not working properly with virtual instruments either.

I'm sorry Sascha. I don't think i made myself clear. I wasn't implying that MFX are useless. What I was saying is that although they might sometimes help with inspiration or a task it's not reason enough for me to dump Logic and go to the Hell of a UI cubase is.

[Sascha Franck]

I know popsych... I'm just exactly in the same boat. And I don't really need MFX. They're fun to fool around with, but at the end of the day there's 100s of things that I need way more often. Most of them offered by Logic. And yes, Steinberg should finally fire their UI designers (seems that good old Dave Nicholson is the main driving force behind all UI stuff... if you know him, you'll also know what this is all about).

[popsych]

I know popsych... I'm just exactly in the same boat. And I don't really need MFX. They're fun to fool around with, but at the end of the day there's 100s of things that I need way more often. Most of them offered by Logic. And yes, Steinberg should finally fire their UI designers (seems that good old Dave Nicholson is the main driving force behind all UI stuff... if you know him, you'll also know what this is all about).

I don't really but his design skills speak for themselves. Looks over substance all the way which is sad as cubase/nuendo have much potential but are ruined for bad ergonomics IMHO

[Rednroll]

Podium has pretty good midi support (sysex etc.)

What is Podium? Where is it's website, so I can check it out? Demo available? Does it support Rewire Host/Slave capabilities?

I'm looking for someone to pick up where Opcode left off with it's midi implementation. I'm almost at the point where I feel like learning programming, just so I can start writing my own midi sequencing app. It's pretty frustrating, when you're using an app like Studio Vision, which supported Sysex Playback/record, Patch/Program changes within a track, Notation View/editor, List editor, Step Record via nested sequences on a single track, Input quantization, Instrument/Patch selection, Multi input record functionality, Punch in recording with options to add or replace the previous performance. MTC, Midi Beat Clock sync to and generate/regenerate and on the MAC side version add Rewire, VST, and VSTi capabilities. All done in a simple GUI. I could go on for days trying to find a replacement midi sequencer and always find a couple short comings on what I now consider to be basic midi functionalities. Development was stopped in the year 2000, and here it is 2005 and I see people still asking for input quantization, multi midi input record functionality in apps like Sonar and a better GUI in Cubase.

[Kalamata Kid]

Podium:
http://www.zynewave.com/index.htm

[mojkarma]

May I ask why is Cubase a hell of UI? (I use cubase and logic pro 7)

[Sascha Franck]

May I ask why is Cubase a hell of UI? (I use cubase and logic pro 7)

Mixer: Doesn't offer any sort of configurability (others than small view and hideable channels).

Mixer: No option to change plugin chains. I call that a UI thing (even if its a technical issue).

Access to audio channel settings from project window: Partially adressed, still lousy.

Mixer: Bad integration of multi out VSTis. Open Kontakt 2 and you'll have another 32 added mixer channels.

Treating MIDI CC recordings: Impossible in the project window, you need to open key edit. Wonderfully working in Logic (via hyperdraw).

No way to record mixer/plugin movements as MIDI data - which very often is a HUGE advance over using track automation (I'll elaborate, if you like).

Mixer: Only capable of showing EITHER sends OR EQs OR inserts. I never need 8 inserts OR 8 sends but I may need 2 inserts and 2 sends - visible at once.

Screensets: Poor integreation as once as you're using editors. SX will get confused and all of a sudden play wrong stuff in your main project screenset.

Float Windows: no way to open an editor and put it onto a second screen with the main window being maximized on your main screen. Not applicable for Macs as things are handled entirely different (even Logic 5.5.1/PC treats them WAY better than any Logic/Mac version) due to the lame integration of float windows into any Mac OS (float windows can't be focussed, so key commands won't work).

Too much buttons everywhere. Look at your project window with the track list expanded a bit. There's tons of "e" buttons. What do you need them for? What is it that you can't get to as fast in Logic?

Plugin window management. In Logic, plugin windows can replace each other. In Cubase, after a few edits you're drowning in windows, unless you close each of them every time.

Solo function is completely bloated. When having the mixer focussed, the solo function is doing something entirely different than when using it in your project window.

There might be more, but this should be enough for now.

[mojkarma]

Mixer: Doesn't offer any sort of configurability (others than small view and hideable channels).

Well, thats for sure not true. What you consider under the term configurability is not the same opinion of another person, but saying that there is not any other configurability then small view and hideable channels is IMHO wrong.

Mixer: No option to change plugin chains. I call that a UI thing (even if its a technical issue).

That is definitely a technical issue.

Access to audio channel settings from project window: Partially adressed, still lousy.

What do you mean? Until logic 6 you had to switch to the mixer only to make a channel a little louder or quieter. This is for me the real UI hell, or it was until logic6. What do you miss in the inspector view in cubase's project window?

Mixer: Bad integration of multi out VSTis. Open Kontakt 2 and you'll have another 32 added mixer channels.

I never need 32 channels so I don't activate all of them. The unneeded channels can be hidden.
In logic I almost don't need more than one channel because I have to open a new vst (au) for every new midi track (I definitely like more the freedom that cubase offer in that area: route any midi track to any activated vst)

Treating MIDI CC recordings: Impossible in the project window, you need to open key edit. Wonderfully working in Logic (via hyperdraw).

Ok. But the fact that you have to switch to keyedit, does this qualify for the term hell of UI?
Another example: if you want to program drums and send different midi notes to different vst: this is in cubase all done with the drum map. Everything on one place. Programing drums in logic and using various instruments is a real UI hell. It is an easy task for you, but every beginner (I'm even not a beginner) will have a hard time to understand how to program drums in logic. I'd better not talk further about mididrums and logic.

Mixer: Only capable of showing EITHER sends OR EQs OR inserts. I never need 8 inserts OR 8 sends but I may need 2 inserts and 2 sends - visible at once.

You have three mixers in cubase + the inspector in the project view. You sure have an idea how to handle your situation. Sure, you think that the approach of logic is the better way - while I can agree with you - but even for that reason Cubase is far away from being a UI hell. At the end, you can use the edit channel button and you get a new channel window and it gets updated for any new selected track.

Too much buttons everywhere. Look at your project window with the track list expanded a bit. There's tons of "e" buttons. What do you need them for? What is it that you can't get to as fast in Logic?

Sorry, but that is really just your personal and very own impression. Of course, you can do all the things as fast in logic ... if you now the key combiantions and shortcuts. Personal, I am a guy who prefers to know shortcuts and keybindings to get things done faster, but don't expect that everybody want's to work in your or mine way. Some people just prefer to have a button that activates a bypass of inserteffects, without trying to remember what was the shortcut?

You have for sure some valid points, but I could also talk about not so great implementations in logic pro 7.

[popsych]

Mixer: Doesn't offer any sort of configurability (others than small view and hideable channels).

Well, thats for sure not true. What you consider under the term configurability is not the same opinion of another person, but saying that there is not any other configurability then small view and hideable channels is IMHO wrong.

So what other options are there ? Can i e.g. rearrange my tracks in the mixer to not follow the sequencing order. ?

Mixer: No option to change plugin chains. I call that a UI thing (even if its a technical issue).

That is definitely a technical issue.

No actually its an ergonomics issue which falls into the UI design area. Even if the audio engine did not support that immediatetely the GUI code could do some saving of parameters unloading existing reloading and restoring the parameters.

Access to audio channel settings from project window: Partially adressed, still lousy.

What do you mean? Until logic 6 you had to switch to the mixer only to make a channel a little louder or quieter. This is for me the real UI hell, or it was until logic6. What do you miss in the inspector view in cubase's project window?

Actually no you didn't. I have 5.5.1 and i can activate a floating inspector just by having an environment sized as a fader float on top of the sidebar and linking it. Actually i have a screenset for that. Can you see just how flexible logic is ? I know this has worked for at least v5

Mixer: Bad integration of multi out VSTis. Open Kontakt 2 and you'll have another 32 added mixer channels.

I never need 32 channels so I don't activate all of them. The unneeded channels can be hidden.
In logic I almost don't need more than one channel because I have to open a new vst (au) for every new midi track (I definitely like more the freedom that cubase offer in that area: route any midi track to any activated vst)

Maybe this is a non-issue for you. Is for my workflow. Want me to give you something more exciting ? Cubase doubles the value just like (insert supermarket here) buy 1 get 1 free.E.g. You not only get the 17 VSTi MIDI tracks you need for this project but additionally we'll throw in another 17 for audio. Thats 34 tracks for the price of 17. Amazing value. Clutter clutter clutter

Treating MIDI CC recordings: Impossible in the project window, you need to open key edit. Wonderfully working in Logic (via hyperdraw).

Ok. But the fact that you have to switch to keyedit, does this qualify for the term hell of UI?
Another example: if you want to program drums and send different midi notes to different vst: this is in cubase all done with the drum map. Everything on one place. Programing drums in logic and using various instruments is a real UI hell. It is an easy task for you, but every beginner (I'm even not a beginner) will have a hard time to understand how to program drums in logic. I'd better not talk further about mididrums and logic.

It doesn't work for you. Doesn't mean it's broken. The additional steps in Cubase though are there for both me and you. Please do talk about it.

Mixer: Only capable of showing EITHER sends OR EQs OR inserts. I never need 8 inserts OR 8 sends but I may need 2 inserts and 2 sends - visible at once.

You have three mixers in cubase + the inspector in the project view. You sure have an idea how to handle your situation. Sure, you think that the approach of logic is the better way - while I can agree with you - but even for that reason Cubase is far away from being a UI hell. At the end, you can use the edit channel button and you get a new channel window and it gets updated for any new selected track.

So you realize it is a weakness. May not be hell but with flaws like these that you have to work with like 5000 times a day, that's productivity, energy, time and creative juices wasted.

Too much buttons everywhere. Look at your project window with the track list expanded a bit. There's tons of "e" buttons. What do you need them for? What is it that you can't get to as fast in Logic?

Sorry, but that is really just your personal and very own impression. Of course, you can do all the things as fast in logic ... if you now the key combiantions and shortcuts. Personal, I am a guy who prefers to know shortcuts and keybindings to get things done faster, but don't expect that everybody want's to work in your or mine way. Some people just prefer to have a button that activates a bypass of inserteffects, without trying to remember what was the shortcut?

You have for sure some valid points, but I could also talk about not so great implementations in the logic.

Oh and one more thing while we're on the subject of buttons. Don't know if it's fixed in SX3 tried SX2, although 1-9 i think are assigned to tools the order of the buttons for tools change so e.g. even though the scissor appears first it's actually assigned to 5.So not a hint of visual feedback which is as you say quite an important thing. Is this a clever thing to do ?

P.S edited typos

[Sascha Franck]

Well, thats for sure not true. What you consider under the term configurability is not the same opinion of another person, but saying that there is not any other configurability then small view and hideable channels is IMHO wrong.

So, you will then tell me which other options there are, won't you?

What do you mean? Until logic 6 you had to switch to the mixer only to make a channel a little louder or quieter. This is for me the real UI hell, or it was until logic6. What do you miss in the inspector view in cubase's project window?

You don't know Logic well then, I must say.
For AGES I've been using a small channel strip on the left, almost looking like the channel strip in Logic 6 (a floating environment window, in case you're curious).

Regarding Cubase: Try to get to the audio channel settings of a VSTi (I'm not talking about the inferior channel strip which won't even let you scroll down in case you have inserts, sends and EQs shown). It'll open the audio channel setting fine for the first selected plugin, but as soon as you select another channel, you'll be back at the MIDI channel settings instead. Good idea, less then mediocre realisation is the only thing coming to my mind.

I never need 32 channels so I don't activate all of them.

A) Some plugins come with a fixed number of channels (unfortunately... but anyways).
B) You may need them one day (I do, that's why I keep them active).

The unneeded channels can be hidden.

Scenario:
- Open a multi out VSTi.
=> maximum number of channels added.
- Hide the ones not needed.
=> waste of time.
- Decide to use one of those additional channels.
=> you need to click "unhide" then set the channel you need to "visible", then need to hide the reat again. What a waste of time again.

In logic I almost don't need more than one channel because I have to open a new vst (au) for every new midi track (I definitely like more the freedom that cubase offer in that area: route any midi track to any activated vst)

As said before, you don't seem to know Logic all that well.
You can use a mapped instrument (or a single MIDI instrument) and cable it to the AU in question. Since Logic 7 this is even working for layering and the likes.

Ok. But the fact that you have to switch to keyedit, does this qualify for the term hell of UI?

Not as a single thing, but it just adds up.

Another example: if you want to program drums and send different midi notes to different vst: this is in cubase all done with the drum map. Everything on one place. Programing drums in logic and using various instruments is a real UI hell. It is an easy task for you, but every beginner (I'm even not a beginner) will have a hard time to understand how to program drums in logic. I'd better not talk further about mididrums and logic.

Admittedly, it's a bit more tough to get you there in Logic, but once you got the hang of mapped instrumnents and hyper edit, it's way more powerful than Cubase's drum editor. You can cable mapped instrument outs to whichever AU you like and the mapping definition you set up there will automatically be adapted by hyper edit. Hyper edit itself is way better for things such as drum rolls and the likes.

You have three mixers in cubase + the inspector in the project view. You sure have an idea how to handle your situation. Sure, you think that the approach of logic is the better way - while I can agree with you - but even for that reason Cubase is far away from being a UI hell. At the end, you can use the edit channel button and you get a new channel window and it gets updated for any new selected track.

As said before, the update of channels doesn't work for virtual instruments as you'll be taken back to the MIDI channel settings rather than to the audio channel settings.

The same bloated thing is true for the mixer. In case you set it to "autoselect track" (found in your preferences), it's the MIDI tracks for VSTis that will get selected - defenitely nothing anybody will use with VSTis. Getting to the appropriate audio channel will require scrolling whereas in Logic the mixer will automatically follow your arrange selection, should you activate the link symbol.

The availability of 3 mixers in SX doesn't help at all (besides, in Logic I can open as many mixers as I like), especially since they're not configurable.

You have for sure some valid points, but I could also talk about not so great implementations in logic pro 7.

I don't know Logic 7 well (I'm still on Windows), but having been a long time betatester back in the Emagic days I surely know about the various shortcomings of Logic.
But I also know about the strengths. And UI design has allways been one of Emagics strengths - while it has allways been Cubase's weakest point.

And while you were talking about keycommands - even regarding that Logic is way superior.

I tend to agree that Logic 7 (at least judging from what I know so far) is a step back. All the Apple move actually was. I've never seen a release which caused as much problems and abandoning VST support hasn't been a clever move either (well, for FXpansion it must have been a godsend though...), more to the opposite (imagine, I can't load my PC songs under Logic 6/7 anymore, even if I have the same set of plugins both as AU and VSTi).

Oh, and before I forget: There's no velocity tool in Cubase. But as said in this thread before, rumours are that there will be one in the next update.

[mojkarma]

As said before, you don't seem to know Logic all that well.
You can use a mapped instrument (or a single MIDI instrument) and cable it to the AU in question. Since Logic 7 this is even working for layering and the likes.

Look, that is your problem. There is almost nothing in Logic that doesn't make a perfect sense to you because you are used to work in that way for a long time. You are talking about this things as it is the most easy and natural: pick a mapped instrument and cable it to the AU. The manual is regarding this everything but informative.

Here is my desired situation:

1. starting to program drums with my motif es drum program
2. when I'm finished, I would like eventually to insert the exs in an instrument channel and play the kick from my sample libraries, the snare from another synth.

My situation above is actually a simple task. That's how I think about it. It is in Cubase, but I don't get it in Logic.
I have a multi instrument (because my motif es is a multi instrument and I use it as a multi instrument). No, I can add a new, mapped instruments. How can I route the channel 10 from my motif to the mapped instrument? Everything I tried did not get the job. How the hell do I tell Logic where the source is (the 10. midichannel of my motif).

[Sascha Franck]

1. starting to program drums with my motif es drum program
2. when I'm finished, I would like eventually to insert the exs in an instrument channel and play the kick from my sample libraries, the snare from another synth.

Create a mapped instrument, have cable 1 running to, say your EXS, cable 2 to another synth.
Route the outs (=cables) in your mapped instrument to your likings.
Of course you need to play the track back on the mapped instrument (which, in this case defeats the purpose of getting to the instrument's audio channel quickly - but that´s in the nature of the scenario and Cubase won´t do it any better).

My situation above is actually a simple task. That's how I think about it. It is in Cubase, but I don't get it in Logic.

Yes, in this case, it's a tad easier in Cubase. But once you know mapped instruments you won't have much of a problem either.

I have a multi instrument (because my motif es is a multi instrument and I use it as a multi instrument). No, I can add a new, mapped instruments. How can I route the channel 10 from my motif to the mapped instrument? Everything I tried did not get the job. How the hell do I tell Logic where the source is (the 10. midichannel of my motif).

You just set the mapped instruments MIDI port straight to the one running into the motif and set it to channel 10. Done.
In case you want to only route, say, a snare to the motif and route everything else to virtual instruments, you'd just route one cable of the mapped instrument to the motif (using either the existing multi or a new instrument) and set the cable to channel 10 (inside the mapped instrument). The last step is not needed if you create a dedicated instrument running on channel 10.

As said, in this particular case it's a bit more of an effort than it would be in SX.
On the upside, you'll be able to insert further things in your routing, say, a velocity limiter or expander.