Bye bye VST2

[teilo]

I am indifferent to CLAP.

Your post history says otherwise.

[jamcat]

My post history just says I like arguing on the internet. What I’m not indifferent towards is irrational arguments.

Going all the way back, my position has always been the following:

1. VST3 is a real and necessary improvement over VST2. This has nothing to do with CLAP, other than the CLAP cult use attacking VST3 as their primary vehicle for promoting CLAP. It enrages them that I don’t share their zealous hatred for all things Steinberg and VST3.

2. There is no tangible incentive (money) for developers to invest the necessary resources (money) into building CLAP versions, which is exactly why there are not many who have. Every successful, widely adopted plugin format has at least one major DAW that uses it exclusively. If developers want access to that DAW’s considerable userbase (money), they must support its native format. CLAP has no such DAW. And Bitwig apparently lacks the courage of their convictions to become CLAP exclusive, the way Logic became AU exclusive when Apple bought it.

I have even given the CLAP community useful suggestions for making CLAP more attractive, such as playing to its unique strengths and creating a suite of free useful MIDI FX for CLAP that cannot be done with VST3. This advice has so far been ignored.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

cult

You're quite fond of this word.

In my personal experience dealing with real-life cults, the cultists do not know they're in a cult. They think everyone else is in a cult. In particular, they cannot tolerate any defense of whatever people or ideas their dogma has chosen as its devils, and when they encounter such a defense, they interpret that as devil worship.

You are a VST3 cultist. I can't possibly imagine how you ended up in this position, but that's where you are. You love VST3, and you have a pathological need to convince everyone else to love it as much as you do. You can't tolerate any claim that makes VST3 look worse than the alternatives, even when the truth of these claims is trivially verifiable. When the perfect goodness and beauty of VST3 comes in conflict with reality, you need reality to lose. You can't have it any other way.

And before you jump down my throat again, I will freely say that CLAP is not a messiah. This is the software industry. There are no messiahs here; just tools that are awful, and tools that are less awful. You can choose a better tool, but you still have to do a shitload of work to get a product into users' hands, and then you have to do a shitload more work to keep it doing what they want. There's no way around that. At best, you can sometimes avoid piling more unnecessary work on top of all the necessary work. Identifying which is which is not always easy, and often only possible in hindsight. But you won't even allow for that.

Go get help. You need the kind you won't find in an argument on the internet.

[jamcat]

That’s a lot of words to say you are enraged that I don’t share your zealous hatred for all things Steinberg and VST3.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I'm not enraged at all. I'm amazed at how long you've kept this up and how much time and effort you've invested in it.

I also don't hate Steinberg. I have specific reasons to distrust the company, especially its legal department. Their behavior is dangerous to other businesses (and to open source developers) and it's basic human decency to give people a heads up before they step on a land mine.

I don't even hate VST3. I think it sucks a lot, but so do some other things that I have to bite the bullet and work with on a daily basis.

I've said some of this before. You just reject whatever doesn't fit your narrative.

[muzicxs]

Some examples from my own actual every day use:

• ...
• Sample accurate automation on SWAM Solo Strings, so that bowing articulations can be precisely crafted and will sound the same, every time they play.

Maybe these don't matter to you, but they’ve made a huge difference to me. They make the difference between ‘can’ and ‘cannot’. And they aren’t available for CLAP.

CLAP doesn't support sample accurate automation?

[jamcat]

Some examples from my own actual every day use:

• ...
• Sample accurate automation on SWAM Solo Strings, so that bowing articulations can be precisely crafted and will sound the same, every time they play.

Maybe these don't matter to you, but they’ve made a huge difference to me. They make the difference between ‘can’ and ‘cannot’. And they aren’t available for CLAP.

CLAP doesn't support sample accurate automation?

It does. But as with most plugins, SWAM Solo Strings is not available as CLAP. If I was dependent on CLAP, I wouldn't be able to use SWAM (or 95% of the plugins I use.) This is what actually matters to me.

[gauderbock]

If I was dependent on CLAP, I wouldn't be able to use SWAM

Absolutely noone is suggesting we should be dependent on clap alone.

[rod_zero]

More like steinberg simp, lover, fanboi.

[jamcat]

What can I say. VST has served me well as the industry standard for nearly 30 years, and no doubt will continue for another 30. Why would I not appreciate that? Hell, I remember when this place was kvr-vst.com.

[MrJubbly]

That is such a bizarre and illogical stance to take, with regard to pessimism and resistance to the CLAP format.

My current favourite plugin doesn't * currently * support CLAP. Therefore, if I had to * only * use CLAP plugins, I couldn't currently use my favourite plugin.

Can't you spot the inherent illogic when talking about the growing support for a relatively new format (especially, as compared to VST/VST3)?

CLAP adoption is not static or stalling. There are more CLAP plugins coming all the time. There will be a lot more by this time next year than there are * currently * ... There will be FAR more in 5 years time than next year.

I bet you will be using a majority of CLAP plugins in your projects in five years time ... including all Audio Modeling / SWAM plugins. Because, as a forward-thinking business, they too will have to adapt and support the most popular plugin formats for their users. That includes customers like yourself, but it also includes customers like me, who want to use their plugins in CLAP and who will continue to request this support from them, until they do.

[machinesworking]

I've said some of this before. You just reject whatever doesn't fit your narrative.

I don't really know why I get trapped into trying to convince these types of anything really? I guess it's this urge to not have a narrow ideology that demands either loyalty or war with a particular concept as the only voice in a thread, but I don't think it serves anything really to point it out? I'm just riffing of this truism about some people who post in forums, that nothing will come of it in the end.

[jamcat]

So you’re not for the War on Steinberg?

Then who are you trying to convince, and what exactly are you trying to convince them of?

[mjolnir]

is CLAP foss? (free open source software)

[mi-os]

[CLAP] cult

In my personal experience dealing with real-life cults, the cultists do not know they're in a cult. They think everyone else is in a cult.
....
You are a VST3 cultist.

interesting pretzel logic