KVR Audio

mmoncur · Post by **mmoncur** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:33 pm

I start all of my tracks with an EQ doing a low cut at 200Hz. Then if it's a kick or bass, I bring it down to 50-100 depending on the sound. If it's NOT a kick or bass, I bring the frequency up until it starts to ruin the sound of the track while listening to it solo. (Example, a melody line starts to sound "thin" or a pad starts to sound buzzy or nasal) and then bring it back down a bit to get it sounding good.

I consider the area below 200Hz to belong solely to the kick and bassline(s). So if any sound seems to need any of that space below 200Hz to sound good, then I probably need to replace the sound as it's going to clash with the kick and bass.

From about 200-600Hz is a muddy area. Ideally nothing but the kick and bass would be there too, but in practice there are always a few instruments (usually leads) that need some of that range to sound good.

I do the same thing with High cuts on most tracks -- start at 18K and bring it down until it hurts the sound, then bring it back up. On the OSCs I don't usually do much high cutting because it's hard to get much high-frequency "air" with purely synthetic sounds. Samples on the other hand, especially cymbals, need a bit of a high cut.

My ears aren't great -- I'm in my 40s and have a bit of hearing loss. If you can listen to professional music in your genre of choice and enjoy it, you can mix your own music. I do tend to use a spectrum analyzer more than my ears for the area below 100Hz (which my speakers can't do) and above 14Khz (which my ears can't hear.)

This has all taken 20 years of practice and I'm still not good at it, but at least my mixes sound pretty close to what I want.

ThePresent · Post by **ThePresent** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:42 pm

Someone here mentioned the Recording revolution.com , his "5 minutes to a better mix"-series should keep you busy for at least a year if you practice. Very accessible stuff.

BlitBit · Post by **BlitBit** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:05 pm

wagtunes wrote:Know what my problem is? Nobody ever taught me this stuff and I don't have a "natural" aptitude for it. So everything is very hard for me even to get the sound that I do get. It's all trial and error. My only formal education was in music composition, which I think shows. But when it comes to production skills, they have always come hard for me. To this day, I still don't really know how to "professionally" use EQs, Compressors and Limiters. I just kind of fool around with the settings until I think it sounds good. But I really don't have any idea what I'm doing.

Like some of the others have already written: start teaching that stuff to yourself.

No one is born with a natural aptitude to make music, especially with regards to the the more technical stuff like production techniques. And for each of the topics you've mentioned (EQing, compression, etc.) you will find hundreds of videos on YouTube that explain the concepts. I wish I would have had that easy access to all the knowledge and information when I started making music (playing guitar) two decades ago.

wagtunes wrote:Essentially, I'm a composer who has to make his own music to be heard because I can't get other people to record my songs for me. Been down that road for 36 years with nothing to show for it. These days, I do patch libraries for synths because that comes easy to me.

If I was selling patch libraries I would be even more eager to learn all that stuff. To be frank I listened to the SoundCloud demo for your Z3ta+2 patch library and it would not convince me to shell out the money if I was to buy some sound packs. Especially if I compare it to the demos for other packs (e.g. Spire) which sound like snippets from professionally produced songs. And people will very likely compare your demos to other demos they find so you want to sound as similar as possible with regards to production quality to be able to compete.

Last but not least, I think a very important factor for being successful at whatever you want to learn is persistence. Especially with music (production) there are so many things to learn and consider (instruments, physics of sound, music theory, song writing, tracking, mixing, mastering, etc.) that there is no quick short cut to learn them all in a very short time. Well, at least not until they invent direct brain uploads.

I agree with the advice given by ontrackp: keep improving with every track. Learn new things every now and then and apply them directly to your new stuff, e.g. learn and apply something new for each OSC. If you do that often enough you can only improve over time.

So, just keep learning, learning, learning and most important: have fun while doing so!

P.S.: There is a course on music production at coursera which starts next monday: https://www.coursera.org/course/musicproduction (Lesson 5 covers EQing for example).

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:10 pm

wagtunes wrote: I also understand, in theory, about instruments occupying the same frequency and making space them for, but the problem is, I don't understand how to do that.

This is most easily done before you're even mixing. Try and make sure every part has a natural place in the arrangement. If you still end up with a lot in one frequency range, think of which instrument or sound should be most in focus. These problems usually happen in the mid range, like guitar and vocals. Try to find out where one instrument has dominant frequencies and cut a little bit around there in the other. Around 1000-2000Hz may be a good place to cut sounds that should be in the background. Don't overdo it, a few DB is usually enough.
Especially in dance music it's also very common to use a side chained ducking compressor on the bass, connected to the kick drum. The idea being that you lower the volume of the bass when the kick hits. That's a way to avoid competing instruments in the bass register.

Which one do I cut? How much? How do I know when it's "good?" All I have to go by are my ears and they're not the greatest at my age. Hell, I had 30% hearing loss by the time I was in my teens. So hearing is against me. But does that have to matter? Can you technically do this by meters alone so that your ears don't matter as much? And if not, how do you compensate for bad ears?

Learn to trust your own hearing, even if it's worse than other's. You are still used to how you hear things and the brain compensates a lot on itself. The main problem would be if there are certain frequencies that you cannot hear. Usually high frequency loss from age or masked by tinnitus. But you can still learn how your ears work. Just listening to music, comparing your own mixes with mixes you like etc. Listen consciously...
You can't really mix well by only meters but they can be of help.

Some things I just do because I was told to, like cutting above a certain frequency for crash cymbals. Compression and limiting, I just use the presets. If I'm doing a dance beat, I'll use the closest thing that says "dance compression." That's all I know how to do. The levels and settings themselves are close to meaningless to me.

Basic compression is one thing you really cannot use presets for. They will give you a random result... However, it is kinda possible to go by meters and standard operations here and at least get a more consistent result:
Pick a preset that seems to fit your application (eg Drum Bus). What you'll need to adjust is Threshold. This basically tells the compressor at what input level to start compressing. Look at the meter (should be set to show how much compression is applied). If you pull the threshold up, the meter will show nothing. If you pull it down you'll start to see something happening. You usually want the meter to show 6Db of compression or less. You should see it pumping a bit, show more compression on peaks in the material. If you think of it as an automatic volume control, this is how much you'd pull the volume down.
Try extreme settings and listen to what happens. Leave it somewhere where you start to hear a difference but not much...

I'd basically leave the master alone and focus on the mix. Master is for extremely subtle stuff... Put a peak limiter on there to avoid clipping, perhaps a utility EQ cutting all frequencies under 40Hz.
If you want higher level, look for peaks in your individual instruments and handle them directly. Compressor, EQ or level automation may be used to tame the peaks. Then just use the master level and put it where peaks are close to -0Db without clipping...

mmoncur · Post by **mmoncur** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:28 pm

For mastering I recommend this tutorial to get started:

https://bassgorilla.com/ableton-live-ma ... -tutorial/

This is for Ableton, but you can do similar things in other DAWs.

Mastering should be *subtle* though. While I'm composing I keep a limiter on my master bus with the gain at +6-10 and when I want to hear it at "master volume" I turn that on. Once I'm happy with the way it sounds I replace the limiter with the mastering chain from this tutorial, and then adjust thresholds on the various parts for a bit of gain reduction. In the end it sounds *almost* the same as with just the limiter.

If your mix is good mastering can be nothing but a limiter and an EQ.

I agree you should never use a compressor with presets -- you're better off not using one at all. At a bare minimum you will *always* need to adjust the threshold to get the right amount of gain reduction on your source material.

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:32 pm

Preliminary results: Here

Will post official results in about 30 minutes. PM me on any issues.

doctorbob · Post by **doctorbob** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:39 pm

wagtunes wrote: I do understand about the low frequencies and getting rid of them to a point. I also understand, in theory, about instruments occupying the same frequency and making space them for, but the problem is, I don't understand how to do that.

You might find this chart useful as a starting point as to where all the main instruments fit into the frequency space. It's interactive so you can probe it for more info.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn ... isplay.htm

Just follow the advice here - I've only been at OSC for 6 or 7 months and have learnt a hell of a lot from the good and kind folk here.

And, most of all, just enjoy.

dB

SoundGoddess · Post by **SoundGoddess** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:06 pm

Well that sucks, I don't understand why my song was in the bottom 5.

Parduz · Post by **Parduz** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:54 pm

SoundGoddess wrote:Well that sucks, I don't understand why my song was in the bottom 5.

Well, talking about the "2" i gave you, it's 'cause the constant off-tempo of the rythm track and some instrument, which i feel as wrong, and a lack of variation in the track "skeleton"... it lacks a bridge, a different chord progression.... something that helps to create a focus on itself or on something that will follow.
This all, obviously IMHO: i could be terribly wrong (in which case i would like to learn why), and all in the most constructive and friendly manner

H-man · Post by **H-man** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:59 pm

SoundGoddess wrote:Well that sucks, I don't understand why my song was in the bottom 5.

I want to write something soothing and considerate here but it's all coming over clumsy so let me just say this,

1. Don't get too down, competition was pretty fierce this time ..this is your art and if you like it then it's good

2. There are plenty of people here in the OSC community that will help in whatever way they can. Perhaps contact a few of the OSCers for their opinion and comments. Feedback is important.

3. Do a collab

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:12 am

Final Results: Jasinski has conquered again!!!

1st Jasinski - Mrs. Anteater's Myths 229pts

2nd z.prime - Addiction 226pts

3rd H-man - Just Another Face In The Cloud 226pts

4th Lemmike - Midnight Treasures 222pts

5th Harthstein - Riding On A Jetstream 219pts

6 evo2slo - Death To Yesterday 214pts
7 keith303 - entry level teleportation device 214pts
8 Yeager - Shiny Thing 212pts
9 Tjgoa - Majestic Dawn - Synthmaster 211pts
10 EDGEK8D - Dissolution 207pts
11 Mjr5house (aka Mhouse) - Burn The Bridge 204pts
12 Parduz - Gleam of Light 197pts
13 Anthony Newcomb - Synergy 197pts
14 ballacr75 - ballacr75 - istante 196pts
15 Richard Semper - Apparition 195pts
16 ThePresent - Lethal Chase 193pts
17 Loris DS - World's Strongest 193pts
18 OnTrackp - Cognitive Dissonance 191pts
19 BbluntProductions - Sing Master 188pts
20 mmoncur - Orbit 186pts
21 APZX - Easier Time 186pts
22 MTLE - Themes From Mindwalk Part3 185pts
23 Reefius - OSC73 184pts
24 mcaitch - breath 183pts
25 jdruery - The Really Terrible Orchestra: Live At Linwood Community Hall 183pts
26 idfpower - In Flux 182pts
(dq) Quaoar - Saribu 180pts
27 e@rs - Captain Disco vs Lady Guitar and Digital Monk 179pts
28 bh9090 - Right Wing Fear Mongers 177pts
29 ClaRago - ClaRago-Goin' East 175pts
30 Oxebe - Hyped 174pts
31 sfiks - Tap dance 173pts
32 Yavn - Fast Food 172pts
33 DoctorBob - Growlin' 172pts
34 BlitBit - Sleepwalking Into The Party 172pts
35 elbeppo - Return Of The Disco Riff King 170pts
36 GrokSynth - Pine Needle Tower 169pts
37 mehum - Discord In The Master Bedroom 167pts
38 Bibz1st - Clock Watching 166pts
39 DzAH - ReNewYou 165pts
40 Tatanka - Winterschulung5 2015 164pts
41 Spidergod - Coffee & Codeine 162pts
42 HiEnergy - Synthmaster Revival 162pts
43 JWHanberry - First Departure 155pts
44 fese - Master Of Disaster 153pts
45 LhaastDaiz - Papers 153pts
46 oddgoo - The Story of Her Summer 153pts
47 JK Flashico - Star Times 147pts
48 Poofox - Masters of the Unisynth 142pts
49 SoundGoddess - Asteroid Belt 142pts
50 DFL - AnimaciÃ³n 142pts
51 Wagtunes - The ER Room (Electronic Rhapsody) 141pts
52 fairplay - Slow Flickering Sun 129pts
53 MadPsyance - Semuta Addiction 123pts

Can I haz prizes? Now?
First place winner, please announce your chosen prize, and pass it on to the next top fiver. You can't have it right now, it'll take some days, but be patient* NOTE: If you don't want prize, it will be passed to the next person down, thank you

*In the extreme case a prize delivery is taking more than a week, definitely send me a PM and it will get sorted out ASAP. Some prizes could take up to 2 months.

da tracks this month...

..... so good

Scoresheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... f5m3C7dg88

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:14 am

SoundGoddess wrote:Well that sucks, I don't understand...

Would you mind if I PM'd you my thoughts on your track? When I started OSC it took me about 2 years to figure it out, so don't fret

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:17 am

bjporter wrote:Preliminary results: Here

Will post official results in about 30 minutes. PM me on any issues.

Well, it's hard to believe but I did worse than last month. Being totally objective, my entry this month was 10 times better than the month before. I received many more positive comments.

This is extremely disheartening and even a little surprising. I don't even want to look at my results for 74 when they come out because there is no way this month's is anywhere near as good as last month's, at least musically IMO.

Oh well, at least I enjoyed creating it and that's all that matters.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:00 am

Okay, I had to try to analyze what's going on here if possible so I went to my votes and looked at all the people I gave 5's to.

Here is how they finished.

1st Jasinski - Mrs. Anteater's Myths 229pts
2nd z.prime - Addiction 226pts
5th Harthstein - Riding On A Jetstream 219pts
9 Tjgoa - Majestic Dawn - Synthmaster 211pts
12 Parduz - Gleam of Light 197pts
22 MTLE - Themes From Mindwalk Part3 185pts
(27) - (dq) Quaoar - Saribu 180pts
40 Tatanka - Winterschulung5 2015 164pts

As you can see, with just one exception, these people did pretty well with 3 of my 5's finishing in the top 5. So I'd like to think that, if nothing else, my 36 years of music theory, writing and just plain living has at least given me a decent idea of when something is really good.

How does this relate to my own submission?

Being totally objective, I feel my submission was a 3, an average track if you take into account music and production. Based on that, I should have scored 157 points if the 52 people aside from myself scored my track an average of 3 and I gave myself the obligatory 1.

While I received one 5, several 4's and quite a few 3's, the number of 2's I got was off the charts and 4 people actually thought that my track was the most God awful thing on the planet and gave it a 1?

Really?

This is one of two things.

1) People who judged it on the music alone and simply don't like the style.

2) People who simply have an ax to grind with me personally.

There is no way that track is a 1. I know a 1 when I hear it and that isn't a 1.

Anyway, after going through the rest of the results and my voting (I won't post everything) it is clear that my problem is a matter of writing in a style that just doesn't fit the mold here. It's that simple.

One thing I learned from my mom, God rest her soul, is this.

To thine own self be true.

If I try to start churning out EDM tracks I might as well just go do something else. That isn't who I am. And if nothing else, I have to be true to who I am.

OSC 74 I've already submitted my track and I'm not going to bother redoing it. I have no doubt it will probably finish dead last next month even though I worked very hard on the production end of it this time around. But honestly, musically, I don't even like it that much. It's what happens when I work with FM synths. They just don't inspire me much.

And that will probably be my last OSC. I've got too much work to do to beat my head against a stone wall doing something that I'm obviously just not good at.

I tip my hat to you guys who are consistently at the top of the charts each month. And as usual, I pretty much pick the top guys. They must be really good for me to be able to do that so easily.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Good luck to everybody in OSC 74. I may not even bother checking my results but I will be voting for all the winners.

I'm pretty sure I already know who they are because they're THAT good.

Anthony Newcomb · Post by **Anthony Newcomb** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:15 am

wagtunes wrote:
While I received one 5, several 4's and quite a few 3's, the number of 2's I got was off the charts and 4 people actually thought that my track was the most God awful thing on the planet and gave it a 1

How in the world are you able to see what people gave you in scoring numbers? Is there a link I'm not seeing somewhere? Although it's not really important for me to see, it would be interesting take a look

One Synth Challenge #73 special: Synthmaster (Jasinski wins!)