Spire Synthesizer

[___loser]

I'm having some serious problems with LFO's not running predictably. Sometimes they are in sync sometimes not. If I stop and start play in Reaper (windows 8 64bit) I get completely random results.

I have a simple Ta ta ta ta ta type Zimmer like movie score thick saw wave thingy going and it's extremely frustrating as it just doesn't keep sync. Especially in polyphonic mode, even though I trigger 3 notes exactly sample accurately on time, the LFO cycles do not line up, at all. They can be as much as a 16th note apart!

I don't think this is an issue in reaper because FabFilter Twin works just fine and triggers identically every single time.

This is a serious, SERIOUS issue and makes the LFO practically unusable as it is. I'll try to dig deeper and see if I can pinpoint the issue.

I'm running version 0.9.13 of Spire. Will see if the new update fixes anything.

By the way, I'm seriously impressed by the potential of the stepper and arp. Spire will rock!!

Cheers!
bManic

try adjusting the phase of the lfo.

[Halma]

Some output from the last hours while playing with the new Arp.
11x Spire and no other synth are used, only drums and FX are not from Spire.
...

Juicy. Nice sounds. I like it. Good job.

Regards
Sebastian

[olepro]

I'm having some serious problems with LFO's not running predictably. Sometimes they are in sync sometimes not. If I stop and start play in Reaper (windows 8 64bit) I get completely random results.

I have a simple Ta ta ta ta ta type Zimmer like movie score thick saw wave thingy going and it's extremely frustrating as it just doesn't keep sync. Especially in polyphonic mode, even though I trigger 3 notes exactly sample accurately on time, the LFO cycles do not line up, at all. They can be as much as a 16th note apart!

I don't think this is an issue in reaper because FabFilter Twin works just fine and triggers identically every single time.

This is a serious, SERIOUS issue and makes the LFO practically unusable as it is. I'll try to dig deeper and see if I can pinpoint the issue.

I'm running version 0.9.13 of Spire. Will see if the new update fixes anything.

By the way, I'm seriously impressed by the potential of the stepper and arp. Spire will rock!!

Cheers!
bManic

Hi
Did you try to start the sequenser from the exact start of a bar.
I sometimes has troubles if i start somewhere in the middle of two bars when things has to sync proberly.

[4damind]

I think it depends a bit how to arrange a song.
If somebody is using only "show room" sounds with Spire and play them from the start to the end without releasing the key, the CPU would "explode" Similar with Diva.

It sounds good, just listened to it finally

Thanks

IMO Spire sounds better than Sylenth or Massive with a nice Access Virus touch. If they can optimize the CPU usage and fix some small things... it's a synth which could be the new king in the VA synth plug-in world.
It's also very important to have a lot more presets and a better preset browser. If Sylenth was released it earned not the best comments because of the only few presets.

[lavenderaudio]

I think it depends a bit how to arrange a song.
If somebody is using only "show room" sounds with Spire and play them from the start to the end without releasing the key, the CPU would "explode" Similar with Diva.

It sounds good, just listened to it finally

Thanks

IMO Spire sounds better than Sylenth or Massive with a nice Access Virus touch. If they can optimize the CPU usage and fix some small things... it's a synth which could be the new king in the VA synth plug-in world.
It's also very important to have a lot more presets and a better preset browser. If Sylenth was released it earned not the best comments because of the only few presets.

People are way too dependant on presets these days >_>

[4damind]

People are way too dependant on presets these days >_>

Yes, but this was not so different in the past. Jarre used Afaik a lot factory presets (and earned also some critics because of this).
Some of the last albums of Enigma (I think it was "a Posteriori" from 2006), Cretu used a lot factory presets eg. from Linplug Albino.

Some guys are better in creating good sounds and others are more good musicians but mediocre sound designers, so it's easy to please everyone

[paterpeter]

Some guys are better in creating good sounds and others are more good musicians but mediocre sound designers, so it's easy to please everyone

This! There's nothing wrong with using and relying on presets IMO.

[bmanic]

try adjusting the phase of the lfo.

I'm starting to think it's a reaper problem. I got FabFilter twin to run out of LFO sync too. It's not nearly as drastic as Spire but it's still there.


What happens is this: When I press play, sometimes everything is in perfect sync. Then I press stop, then play again. Now suddenly things are a bit more loose. Then keep doing this and sometimes it is _completely_ out of sync, like 16th of a note.

Looks to me like Reaper isn't sending some vital clock information to plugins that sync their LFO's. We really shouldn't have to deal with this kind of crap in the digital domain. I can understand these issues in the old MIDI days with hardware but not when we are talking plugins inside a friggin computer.

Rendering the file does NOT help. It's still random and out of sync. I just bounced a short bit (4 bars) and only on the 5th bounce was it properly in sync!

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

A tip from a score writer. When doing something like this, always use an envelope, not an LFO. You have much greater control over the shape of the sound, you can make it more percussive over time with automation, lengthen it, shorten it, and easily vary the rhythm to offbeat if you have an oddly placed cue in the score. With an LFO you're stuck to automating the rate value, and the limited 'amount' which you send to the filter or amp. This will also circumvent the problem until they look into it.

Honestly, I've had similar problems with Massive in the past, while usually reliable, the clock can get whacked out of sync. Usually not a problem on bounce down, but there you go.

Yeah, I'm definitely switching to envelopes now. I was hoping that I could do it with the step sequencer + lfo in Spire but it's a definite no-go in Reaper at the moment. In fact, I'm starting to suspect Reaper's midi timing or something is really bad or broken. Have to check how it sounds and behaves in the studio where I'm running good old windows 7.

Cheers!
bManic

[Liero]

In fact, I'm starting to suspect Reaper's midi timing or something is really bad or broken.

This is entirely possible, I've run into similar oddities and indiscrepancies with Reaper.

[fgimian]

try adjusting the phase of the lfo.

I'm starting to think it's a reaper problem. I got FabFilter twin to run out of LFO sync too. It's not nearly as drastic as Spire but it's still there.


What happens is this: When I press play, sometimes everything is in perfect sync. Then I press stop, then play again. Now suddenly things are a bit more loose. Then keep doing this and sometimes it is _completely_ out of sync, like 16th of a note.

Looks to me like Reaper isn't sending some vital clock information to plugins that sync their LFO's. We really shouldn't have to deal with this kind of crap in the digital domain. I can understand these issues in the old MIDI days with hardware but not when we are talking plugins inside a friggin computer.

Rendering the file does NOT help. It's still random and out of sync. I just bounced a short bit (4 bars) and only on the 5th bounce was it properly in sync!

Cheers!
bManic

Just a thought, but perhaps this relates to the position in your project relative to the start of each bar in the timeline. Are you starting playback at the beginning of a bar each time?

If the LFO is set to retrigger on each note hit, then another possibility is that you have MIDI chase enabled and so earlier notes are starting at the wrong time. Be sure to check out any MIDI chase options or similar and try disabling them if you can.

I'm on Cubase, so apologies if this hasn't been much help, but just thought I'd throw a few ideas I had your way

All the best mate

[bmanic]

No it's very simple. I just did a two track simple project in Reaper. One sound in Spire, 8th note triols being "created" by modulating the amplitude of OSC 1 with a tempo synced LFO.

Then a second synth with FabFilter Twin.. same thing. 8th note triols created with an LFO from a sustained note.

Then have both synths play a short 4 bar sustained note to start the LFO "sequence".

Press play.. boom instantly out of sync. Press play again... like magic it's in sync. Then again.. nope completely off, by a whole 16th note.

No. Reaper is definitely a big problem here. I did the same exact test in FL Studio and it was much, MUCH tighter timing. However it was far from sample accurate. It too had clear randomness in how the LFO's triggered on each playback/bounce.. but never did it get completely out of whack.

The worst part is, it has nothing to do with midi! Everything is in the box, running at 64bit! Surely these kinds of sync issues should be ironed out by now. I know micro timings and such are a big issue within computers but we are talking about HUGE timing issues here.. a friggin 16th note off.. randomly!

The thing is, the timing does not seem to drift.. even in long sequences. It just triggers at the wrong time! I thought we had sample accurate note starts in our DAWs? Will have to investigate this now too by looping back audio outputs to inputs. I'm afraid of what I might find.

[fgimian]

No it's very simple. I just did a two track simple project in Reaper. One sound in Spire, 8th note triols being "created" by modulating the amplitude of OSC 1 with a tempo synced LFO.

Then a second synth with FabFilter Twin.. same thing. 8th note triols created with an LFO from a sustained note.

Then have both synths play a short 4 bar sustained note to start the LFO "sequence".

Press play.. boom instantly out of sync. Press play again... like magic it's in sync. Then again.. nope completely off, by a whole 16th note.

No. Reaper is definitely a big problem here. I did the same exact test in FL Studio and it was much, MUCH tighter timing. However it was far from sample accurate. It too had clear randomness in how the LFO's triggered on each playback/bounce.. but never did it get completely out of whack.

The worst part is, it has nothing to do with midi! Everything is in the box, running at 64bit! Surely these kinds of sync issues should be ironed out by now. I know micro timings and such are a big issue within computers but we are talking about HUGE timing issues here.. a friggin 16th note off.. randomly!

The thing is, the timing does not seem to drift.. even in long sequences. It just triggers at the wrong time! I thought we had sample accurate note starts in our DAWs? Will have to investigate this now too by looping back audio outputs to inputs. I'm afraid of what I might find.

Ahh damn. Well if it helps, you're welcome to send me your test patch and MIDI for a quick test in Cubase. I also have Ableton Live Lite 8 which I can test in too.

Cheers

[olepro]

Do you start from the same bar in your project every time and it have different timing ?
Or do you continue from the place you stopped when doing this ?

[bmanic]

Do you start from the same bar in your project every time and it have different timing ?
Or do you continue from the place you stopped when doing this ?

Same bar, every time. I tried it from start of project, bar 1, same problem. Doesn't seem to be a difference where I start it from or where the notes are triggered.

The notes themselves are hard quantized to start exactly on the beat.

Same thing in FL Studio.

I'm currently exploring some other synths too to check which one has the tightest timing. I've set up a really tight metronome track so that I can carefully analyze what's going on.

Cheers!
bManic