KVR Audio

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:34 pm

Well damn.. this all motivated me enough to get a quick and dirty custom FTP thingy running so that you can download the ridiculous examples here.

Here are 5 file. 4 renders and the actual reaper project.

I simply rendered the thing 4 times.. the 3 first are completely out of sync while the 4th is somewhat in sync (some weird phasing that shouldn't happen when it's dead on.. and there are some unknown glitches too).

Render 1

Render 2

Render 3

Render 4 (this one is almost in sync)

And you can get the Reaper project file HERE.

Yeah, it's safe to say that "host synced" LFO's are a joke in Reaper at the moment.

NOTE: You'll need a copy of Spire and FF Twin to open the project. I'll continue experimenting with other synths and other hosts to see what's really going on. I have FL Studio and ReNoise tracker to test with. Man this is depressing. I always thought plugins were sample accurate in their entirety.

Cheers!
bManic

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:59 pm

bmanic wrote:Man this is depressing. I always thought plugins were sample accurate in their entirety.

At its core, VST still uses the MIDI protocol (note on, note off, cc's, you name it), so although these could be performed real fast on modern day machines, it's still the same messages used for 30 years. And I think that's the issue, MIDI was never developed for sample accurate timing, a new protocol should be implemented that makes more use, and is more efficient to use, on modern computers.

Aiynzahev · Post by **Aiynzahev** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:27 pm

BDeep wrote:
bmanic wrote:Man this is depressing. I always thought plugins were sample accurate in their entirety.
At its core, VST still uses the MIDI protocol (note on, note off, cc's, you name it), so although these could be performed real fast on modern day machines, it's still the same messages used for 30 years. And I think that's the issue, MIDI was never developed for sample accurate timing, a new protocol should be implemented that makes more use, and is more efficient to use, on modern computers.

Is that what Studio One did?

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:59 pm

This LFO sync seems to be a bug with Spire. Normally the LFO should be restarted at every beat ... and of course this is working in other synth without problems.

It seems that Spire only restarts the LFO if the host starts to "play" and so it goes out of sync after some time.
If they have interest to implement some more options, they could also provide a selection list for "Beat, First Note, Each Note" LFO sync (default should be "Beat").

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:01 pm

I couldn't get FF Twin to work 100% reliably either so it's not just Spire.

I also got much tighter LFO syncs in FL Studio but it's still slightly random and varying each render.

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:11 pm

Ok, it seems that some synth having a problem.
It works with Retrologue (perfect), Predator... not with Tone2 Saurus and Spire

Gucky · Post by **Gucky** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:15 pm

The new beta works very well for me.

But I have a question to the stepper:
How can I set a step to a defined note value?
I see a kind of envelope that defines the note value.
I can change the points of the envelope and then I get other notes.
But I cannot see the note value because there seems to be no display for it.
But how can I define that for example the third step has the note value C3?

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:37 pm

bmanic wrote:I couldn't get FF Twin to work 100% reliably either so it's not just Spire.

I also got much tighter LFO syncs in FL Studio but it's still slightly random and varying each render.

Do the syncs get tighter if you decrease your audio interface buffer size to really small, like 64 samples or less?

DuX · Post by **DuX** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:44 pm

That's an interesting discussion about DAW and VSTi sync accuracy. I always thought this wasn't an issue, but it seems quite otherwise.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:52 pm

Aiynzahev wrote:
BDeep wrote:
bmanic wrote:Man this is depressing. I always thought plugins were sample accurate in their entirety.
At its core, VST still uses the MIDI protocol (note on, note off, cc's, you name it), so although these could be performed real fast on modern day machines, it's still the same messages used for 30 years. And I think that's the issue, MIDI was never developed for sample accurate timing, a new protocol should be implemented that makes more use, and is more efficient to use, on modern computers.
Is that what Studio One did?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to?
BTW, I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an expert on VST or MIDI, don't want to give anyone that impression. It just seems that there are more efficient ways (tighter) ways of communication of the plugin and the host. Didn't Steinberg have a go at that with VST3?

aquar · Post by **aquar** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 pm

I am getting quite a few hung notes in Ableton 9.05 when I use the arp.
Actually its quite serious because Ableton hangs as a result.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:37 pm

aquar wrote:I am getting quite a few hung notes in Ableton 9.05 when I use the arp.
Actually its quite serious because Ableton hangs as a result.

I get hung notes in Live 9.0.5 as well, mind you, not with Spire (don't have it). Although I don't remember that Live choked on it.

xx JPRacer xx · Post by **xx JPRacer xx** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:24 pm

bmanic wrote:I have FL Studio and ReNoise tracker to test with.

Can't wait to see your results with Renoise.

sqigls · Post by **sqigls** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:21 am

very excited to discover this synth.
I will be selling a few others very soon

excellent review on Music Radar too!

are the envelope displays working now?

Andywanders · Post by **Andywanders** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:23 am

bmanic wrote:Well damn.. this all motivated me enough to get a quick and dirty custom FTP thingy running so that you can download the ridiculous examples here.

Here are 5 file. 4 renders and the actual reaper project.

I simply rendered the thing 4 times.. the 3 first are completely out of sync while the 4th is somewhat in sync (some weird phasing that shouldn't happen when it's dead on.. and there are some unknown glitches too).

Render 1

Render 2

Render 3

Render 4 (this one is almost in sync)

And you can get the Reaper project file HERE.

Yeah, it's safe to say that "host synced" LFO's are a joke in Reaper at the moment.

NOTE: You'll need a copy of Spire and FF Twin to open the project. I'll continue experimenting with other synths and other hosts to see what's really going on. I have FL Studio and ReNoise tracker to test with. Man this is depressing. I always thought plugins were sample accurate in their entirety.

Cheers!
bManic

Hi bManic

I just tried your Reaper file and can confirm what you're saying.

I have FF Twin and just got Spire demo. My results were similar to yours, although a couple of times it played in sync. However, mostly it didn't.

I'll try the same experiment in Cubase & Studio One later.

Regarding Spire: First impressions

What a nice synth

I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding CPU - it's fine here.

And the sound quality is top.

Shame I'm broke at the moment. I'll have to save up for this one.

Spire Synthesizer