Waves Over Priced? Maybe - Maybe not...

[bmanic]

I'm surprised this is legal. I mean, you buy the (expensive) product, authorize it, and they have a responsibility to support the customer! Amazing. We haven't upgrade Waves at work in years, it's just not worth it. I was thinking about getting the Waves SSL bundle, but I don't think I can support Nazi tactics like WUP.

You are better off with the SSL Duende hardware/plugin combo. According to the SSL sales person at AES they were not very happy with the timing of the Waves SSL plugins. Apparently waves purchased the rights to use the SSL name already several years ago and now suddenly they decide to release the plugins. Hmm.. Anyways, this is just the SSL guys side of the story so take it as such.

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Cheers!
bManic

[Aleksey Vaneev]

bobby yarrow, AFAIK it's possible to route several sources into one plug-in in SX3 (at least Crunchessor's side chain is working that way). For 'true stereo' you do not need more than two channels. 'True stereo' is just an alternative approach to stereo convolution which usually sounds denser and sounds good with hard-panned sources.

[Scotrick]

Hey, I just want it known that I think Waves plug-ins sound good, if not great, and at the time I was originally buying, there weren't too many other choices... so I don't regret the purchase (actually, I kind of do, we were debating on getting the Waves Gold or the first edition of the PowerCore, but that's old news)...

And has been pointed out, the WUP deal is fine if you are the kind of person who ugrades his gear a lot, and needs to make sure you always have the latest versions, and as a bonus, sometimes new plug-ins, like IR plug-in are offered a bonus to WUP subscribers... like the Native Instrument plan, only NI, as far as I know, never disabled any of their previous products when a new copy protection came out...

the Waves tech guys have always been great when helping with technical problems, although often they had to resort to: reformat, something must've gone screwy with the PACE, which meant new authorizations, which meant new e-mails back and forth, and new strings of words to keep hold of...

But the sales people, they're a different story, when I was struggling to get my already paid for plug-ins to work (and keep in mind that they eventually, after two weeks, decided to make an exception for me and allow me to authorize my gold plug-ins, though they made it clear that I wouldn't be getting any more bug fixes from them)... anyway, before that, when I'd call, the conversation would go like this:
Me: "Hi. I need to use the plugins I own to finish a project,"
Them: "But if you bought the WUP, you'd get the IR plug-in for FREE"
Me: "No. It costs me 300.00 bucks to get it for 'free.' I just want mine."
Them: "Oh come on, it's not that much, and look, for a WHOLE YEAR, you get bug fixes and product updates."
Me: "Mine worked fine. Please, please, please"
(I'm not proud)
Them: "I'll have to talk to my manager."

And so it went.

The reason I didn't care two figs about their convolution reverb, though I'm sure it's great, is that I use the Voxengo, and have since it first came out.

So to sum up: if you've got money, and don't mind the iLok, and can pay top dollar for customer support: they are GREAT plug-ins.

And many pros don't feel like they're buying a quality product unless they have to pay out the ass to maintain it. Digidesign trained them well.

Man. I didn't realize I was still so pissed about this. (happened last summer when I was almost finished with a project for the school of a set of cds of readings from the graduating MFA class).

I hate to be negative, and until this whole business, I had had nothing but good results with Waves. I think the extra pressure from the explosion of great free ware and shareware and smaller companies is making them make decisions based purely on short term money rather than long term money and customer relations

[Aleksey Vaneev]

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Another big dollar dongle? It's not much time left (something like half a year) before possible release of quad-core Athlon 64 X4 with DDR2-800 memory. It is an absolutely crazy amount of CPU power. And since audio mixing applications are so perfectly scalable I wonder what DSP chip-based solution vendors are thinking about. The problem with DSP chips is that they do not evolve as fast as desktop processors - they simply do not have huge turnovers to do it.

[bobby yarrow]

Think TC Electronics will release X2 drivers before or after the release of X4? I'm betting after.

[bduffy]

I'm surprised this is legal. I mean, you buy the (expensive) product, authorize it, and they have a responsibility to support the customer! Amazing. We haven't upgrade Waves at work in years, it's just not worth it. I was thinking about getting the Waves SSL bundle, but I don't think I can support Nazi tactics like WUP.

You are better off with the SSL Duende hardware/plugin combo. According to the SSL sales person at AES they were not very happy with the timing of the Waves SSL plugins. Apparently waves purchased the rights to use the SSL name already several years ago and now suddenly they decide to release the plugins. Hmm.. Anyways, this is just the SSL guys side of the story so take it as such.

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Cheers!
bManic

Yeah, I wonder why the Deunde is modelled after the C200, whereas the Waves is modelled after the 4000 G series. I understand that the 4000 is more common to music studios, whereas the C200 is more common to broadcast...why wouldn't they have modelled the more "musical" desk? (I do understand the Deunde Stereo Bus Compressor is modelled after the 4000 G, however).

So you saw/heard it in action? I'd be interested to know if you can get away with more instances of the Waves Native SSL or the Duende plugins. It's hard to argue with going for the pluins that are actually made by the owners, but Waves are also half the price.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

Think TC Electronics will release X2 drivers before or after the release of X4? I'm betting after.

How TC Electronic is related to dual-core or quad-core processors? Aren't TC offering DSP-based solutions that are not using main CPU?

[bobby yarrow]

There is a driver conflict between the powercore pci and all AMD X2 processors on (almost) all motherboards. As I use AMD on my main DAW, I'm forced to choose between using my powercore pci or using a dual-core processor. It's amazing that TC Elec hasn't gotten around to making their product compatible with something as common (and old) as dual-core AMD chips, but they haven't. Maybe if I'd been paying them $40 a year . . .

[mike goodwin]

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Another big dollar dongle? It's not much time left (something like half a year) before possible release of quad-core Athlon 64 X4 with DDR2-800 memory. It is an absolutely crazy amount of CPU power. And since audio mixing applications are so perfectly scalable I wonder what DSP chip-based solution vendors are thinking about. The problem with DSP chips is that they do not evolve as fast as desktop processors - they simply do not have huge turnovers to do it.

Being the owner of both the Powercore Element and a UAD card I want to say that I don’t plan on investing in another form of DSP card. I may end up loading up a rack of UAD's but not starting with a new brand. I just bought a AMD4400 (64bit 2x2.2gig) and VERY easily over clocked it to 2x2.5 GIG. For god sakes the thing is a FIVE GIG CPU for $550 CAD. If you go by the old AMD way of putting it it would go something like this… The old AMD XP3200 clock speed was actually 2.2 gigs. So to have a cpu that is 2.5 GIGs in speed might be roughly the same speed as an Intel 3.8 GIG cpu? This is just off the top of my head btw. So you take that and times it by two and you would have an Intel 7.6GIG? this is all very unacurate but it is just to try and get my point across. This is not taking into account the fact that the amd CPU is 64bit. Looking at these numbers one can see that the power on these DSP cards is not saving you much. To think that in a couple of years (if that) this AMD4400 chip will be worth about half of what it is now you could pick up two of these CPU's and stick them on the highest quality motherboard for way under a grand and be running cool with a ten gigs of AMD CPU. These types of server motherboards currently can work with up to eight gigs of ram. There is no appeal to the DSP cards anymore for me. I would rather support people that are supporting the more upgradeable solution. The consumer CPU. Wow I did not see this rather large post coming. LOL take it for what you will.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

There is a driver conflict between the powercore pci and all AMD X2 processors on (almost) all motherboards. As I use AMD on my main DAW, I'm forced to choose between using my powercore pci or using a dual-core processor. It's amazing that TC Elec hasn't gotten around to making their product compatible with something as common (and old) as dual-core AMD chips, but they haven't. Maybe if I'd been paying them $40 a year . . .

Maybe they just can't do anything about it without replacing the whole PCI card? That happens everywhere with PCI cards of all types I believe. It is just more of a pity when a pretty expensive card does not work with a new hardware. If it was a simple network card I would just throw it away and purchase another model.

And yes, I was feeling lucky that RME HDSP 9632 I have worked on a new NForce4 motherboard with AMD X2. However, at some point it started to crackle like mad for some unknown reason - I had to make full reformat, and then it started working again.

[martian]

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Another big dollar dongle? It's not much time left (something like half a year) before possible release of quad-core Athlon 64 X4 with DDR2-800 memory. It is an absolutely crazy amount of CPU power. And since audio mixing applications are so perfectly scalable I wonder what DSP chip-based solution vendors are thinking about. The problem with DSP chips is that they do not evolve as fast as desktop processors - they simply do not have huge turnovers to do it.

i think the reason to buy a dsp card to save cpu power already died a while ago. you'd only buy one on the merit of their plugins now. but as you point out their evoluton is very questionable since they seemingly cant really offer what a native plug on a powerful cpu can from this point on (ie. instances, precision, evolution)?

[Aleksey Vaneev]

Yes, and they can't conveniently handle plug-ins that require memory (convolution, sample-based synths).

[munchkin]

There is a driver conflict between the powercore pci and all AMD X2 processors on (almost) all motherboards. As I use AMD on my main DAW, I'm forced to choose between using my powercore pci or using a dual-core processor. It's amazing that TC Elec hasn't gotten around to making their product compatible with something as common (and old) as dual-core AMD chips, but they haven't. Maybe if I'd been paying them $40 a year . . .

Maybe they just can't do anything about it without replacing the whole PCI card? That happens everywhere with PCI cards of all types I believe. It is just more of a pity when a pretty expensive card does not work with a new hardware. If it was a simple network card I would just throw it away and purchase another model.

And yes, I was feeling lucky that RME HDSP 9632 I have worked on a new NForce4 motherboard with AMD X2. However, at some point it started to crackle like mad for some unknown reason - I had to make full reformat, and then it started working again.

I've got two Poco Elements gathering dust on my shelf because they won't work on my system. TC admitted that the start up times of many PC's are too quick for the cards to initialise properly. Unless I change my mobo then the cards will not work and if I do buy a new mobo who knows if it will work? It's an expensive lottery. Then there's the problem with 'dead' cards that have to be sent back.

Check out the unofficial Poco forum and read about the large number of people who have experienced these problem but have received no help from TC.

In contrast I've had no problems with my UAD-1 and I really like their plugins. So some DSP can be useful.

Having said that, with the ever increasing power of cpu's I'd never buy another DSP card. Especially not from TC. I warn everyone to stay away from TC because they are completely unaccountable for their products which is a disgrace. DSP cards are a waste of money nowdays unless you really must have the plugins that come with the card.

[bmanic]

The duende plugins sounded really good. I don't have enough experience with the real hardware to say how close they are but one thing is certain: They are identical to the digital SSL console (which costs $$$$$) and the gate part of the plugin sounds awesome. You can do some very short and snappy gating without artefacts.

AFAIK the price will be around 1500 euros.

Another big dollar dongle? It's not much time left (something like half a year) before possible release of quad-core Athlon 64 X4 with DDR2-800 memory. It is an absolutely crazy amount of CPU power. And since audio mixing applications are so perfectly scalable I wonder what DSP chip-based solution vendors are thinking about. The problem with DSP chips is that they do not evolve as fast as desktop processors - they simply do not have huge turnovers to do it.

I totally agree with you. However, the duende plugins DID sound extremely good. Also, there is surely a reason behind it: They were originally created for the big SSL digital desks. That means they probably have well over xxx xxx$ money in R&D alone, on only the plugins because their primary targets were people with old SSL 4000 analogue consoles. I'll try to get my hands on one of these and create some demos for you guys. The gate in particular was very useful.

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

Yeah, I wonder why the Deunde is modelled after the C200, whereas the Waves is modelled after the 4000 G series. I understand that the 4000 is more common to music studios, whereas the C200 is more common to broadcast...why wouldn't they have modelled the more "musical" desk? (I do understand the Deunde Stereo Bus Compressor is modelled after the 4000 G, however).

No, you've got it a bit up side down. The plugins are not modelled. They are exact copies of the C-series channel effects. Identical code, and for the C-series they MODELLED the SSL 4000. As far as I can remeber the C200 was not originally targeted at broadcast, it just happened to sell there the most.

Cheers!
bManic