Time Signatures In Fl Studio

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exmatproton wrote:Technically he's right. timesig's are (in this time and age) nothing more then visual representations within a certain tempo. Sure, it would be "easier" to set the grid to a certain beatcount. But in FL Studio that isn't necessary in order to use different timesig's.
No it's not, and Jan is right. It's a workflow issue. It's to do with placing the bars and having everything line up properly. Not because of how it looks, but because of how the playlist snap works. Aside from patterns not lining up properly, it also means that markers - and by extension song sections - don't work if you change time signatures within a song.

Sure, you can make everything in a time signature of 1/8 or whatever, and the snap will sort-of-work. But to say it's nothing more than a visual issue is to say it would be perfectly acceptable to write a piece in 7/8 but notate it in a different time signature (e.g. 4/4), and then expect people to be able to easily sight read and play the piece.

As Jan says, it is due to a lack of understanding of what time signatures are. There was a thread on KVR where a number of people were trying to explain time signatures to gol, and it was clear that he had no idea what they were depsite claiming that FL worked just fine with any time signature (which is a lie). At some point I think the penny dropped, after which we were promised time signatures in FL 13. At least it seemed that gol finally understood the difference between a quarter note and an eighth note. If you've ever used what gol thought were the time signature settings in FL, you will immediately notice that they make no sense whatsoever, and have nothing to do with traditional time signatures at all.

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sjm wrote:
exmatproton wrote:Technically he's right. timesig's are (in this time and age) nothing more then visual representations within a certain tempo. Sure, it would be "easier" to set the grid to a certain beatcount. But in FL Studio that isn't necessary in order to use different timesig's.
No it's not, and Jan is right. It's a workflow issue. It's to do with placing the bars and having everything line up properly. Not because of how it looks, but because of how the playlist snap works. Aside from patterns not lining up properly, it also means that markers - and by extension song sections - don't work if you change time signatures within a song.

Sure, you can make everything in a time signature of 1/8 or whatever, and the snap will sort-of-work. But to say it's nothing more than a visual issue is to say it would be perfectly acceptable to write a piece in 7/8 but notate it in a different time signature (e.g. 4/4), and then expect people to be able to easily sight read and play the piece.

As Jan says, it is due to a lack of understanding of what time signatures are. There was a thread on KVR where a number of people were trying to explain time signatures to gol, and it was clear that he had no idea what they were depsite claiming that FL worked just fine with any time signature (which is a lie). At some point I think the penny dropped, after which we were promised time signatures in FL 13. At least it seemed that gol finally understood the difference between a quarter note and an eighth note. If you've ever used what gol thought were the time signature settings in FL, you will immediately notice that they make no sense whatsoever, and have nothing to do with traditional time signatures at all.
I disagree completely. I use multiple time sig's in FL Studio, without any hassle. That proves IL's point, not Jan's (and/or yours). Get rid if your assumption you need grid lines/color matching your time sig and you're done. Believe me, it is purely cosmetic. 100%.

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A DAW is not completely serious until it supports time signatures in the grid. Disregarding it as a means of composing is ridiculous - lots and lots of people still like to use them, so not catering to those is again... not being serious.

You know, there are tons of people who like for their metronome to tick and follow all the timesignature changes in the project, without the need to create separate patterns that would do it because the program can't. Program should do it automatically by following timesigs in the project. You know, just like any other DAW out there.

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sjm wrote:As Jan says, it is due to a lack of understanding of what time signatures are. There was a thread on KVR where a number of people were trying to explain time signatures to gol, and it was clear that he had no idea what they were depsite claiming that FL worked just fine with any time signature (which is a lie). At some point I think the penny dropped, after which we were promised time signatures in FL 13. At least it seemed that gol finally understood the difference between a quarter note and an eighth note. If you've ever used what gol thought were the time signature settings in FL, you will immediately notice that they make no sense whatsoever, and have nothing to do with traditional time signatures at all.
Absolutely correct.

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EvilDragon wrote:A DAW is not completely serious until it supports time signatures in the grid. Disregarding it as a means of composing is ridiculous - lots and lots of people still like to use them, so not catering to those is again... not being serious.

You know, there are tons of people who like for their metronome to tick and follow all the timesignature changes in the project, without the need to create separate patterns that would do it because the program can't. Program should do it automatically by following timesigs in the project. You know, just like any other DAW out there.
Your first point; disagree completely. "Serious" sound/music (whatever that means) can be made with FL Studio. It might be not your tool to do that. It is mine (and many other users). It is a serious tool/DAW with a different approach compared to the usual (and imho boring) DAW's, like Reaper, Cubase, Sonar....

Second point; sure! I agree. And that would be a nice addition. But i don't care AT ALL about that. I can make my stuff without any of that. + The way FL Studio handles everything apart from every part in the workflow, is something i love.

If i need (for whatever reason) fixed (or non-flexible) time sigs (for project sharing for instance), i use another daw. Reaper, or Sonar for instance. For all my solo stuff, i don't need fixed time sigs at all.

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It's just my opinion. Until FLS gets timesigs it's not even remotely on my list of things to work in, no matter how many other nifty features it might have. They're important, end of.

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EvilDragon wrote:It's just my opinion. Until FLS gets timesigs it's not even remotely on my list of things to work in, no matter how many other nifty features it might have. They're important, end of.
Well, luckily for you, there are other DAW's that use fixed time sig's. :tu:

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Actually, (I know, semantics) FL uses fixed timesig (there's only one timesig per project, natively, and it's applied to the pattern playlist grid, which is where you lay down your tracks and patterns and stuff - and this is where you CAN'T change it - but you know that already). Other daws have flexible timesigs for their grids. And yes, I use one of those, because they work better for things that I want to do :)

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EvilDragon wrote:Actually, (I know, semantics) FL uses fixed timesig (there's only one timesig per project, natively, and it's applied to the pattern playlist grid, which is where you lay down your tracks and patterns and stuff - and this is where you CAN'T change it - but you know that already). Other daws have flexible timesigs for their grids. And yes, I use one of those, because they work better for things that I want to do :)
Ow sure. That is another way of looking at it :hihi:

FLS uses 1 timesig per project, all the time indeed (metronome, grid). Luckily one isn't bound to use that.
Coming from trackers like fasttracker, i've always been quite flexible about this. a 32 or 64 tick pattern in fasttracker was 4/4 for instance. When shortening the pattern, the sig stayed 4/4, but effectively, the time sig changes (technically it doesn't ofcourse). This "freedom" is being used in FLS as well. So maybe that's why i don't really care about "fixed to grid" timesig's. Before trackers, i used classic ways of writing arrangements, like midisoft. I fell in love immediately with fasttracker because of the simple way one could use patterns.

So yeah, FLS uses 1 timesig per project and isn't flexible in that sense. But you don't need to change that in order to use different (effective) timesig's. Just like trackers like fasttracker and renoise.

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exmatproton wrote:
sjm wrote:
exmatproton wrote:Technically he's right. timesig's are (in this time and age) nothing more then visual representations within a certain tempo. Sure, it would be "easier" to set the grid to a certain beatcount. But in FL Studio that isn't necessary in order to use different timesig's.
No it's not, and Jan is right. It's a workflow issue. It's to do with placing the bars and having everything line up properly. Not because of how it looks, but because of how the playlist snap works. Aside from patterns not lining up properly, it also means that markers - and by extension song sections - don't work if you change time signatures within a song.

Sure, you can make everything in a time signature of 1/8 or whatever, and the snap will sort-of-work. But to say it's nothing more than a visual issue is to say it would be perfectly acceptable to write a piece in 7/8 but notate it in a different time signature (e.g. 4/4), and then expect people to be able to easily sight read and play the piece.

As Jan says, it is due to a lack of understanding of what time signatures are. There was a thread on KVR where a number of people were trying to explain time signatures to gol, and it was clear that he had no idea what they were depsite claiming that FL worked just fine with any time signature (which is a lie). At some point I think the penny dropped, after which we were promised time signatures in FL 13. At least it seemed that gol finally understood the difference between a quarter note and an eighth note. If you've ever used what gol thought were the time signature settings in FL, you will immediately notice that they make no sense whatsoever, and have nothing to do with traditional time signatures at all.
I disagree completely. I use multiple time sig's in FL Studio, without any hassle.
Who cares.
Step aside and let FL evolve the most basic music composition feature.
Getting used to a lack of feature is not valid reason for a lack.
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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A lot of musicians and composers don't need time sigs - it is completely legitimate for a software developer to cater to that market and ignore the market of people who do use them. Obviously so as FL are a very successful company. To claim that time sigs are necessary (as against optional) is not supported by musical practice.
eg http://richardbarrettmusic.com/s099%20vale%20v1.1.pdf

Of course lots of people find using time sigs essential - and if FL want to cater for them then fine. but they have run a successful business for a long time without doing so

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liquidsound wrote: Who cares.
Step aside and let FL evolve the most basic music composition feature.
Getting used to a lack of feature is not valid reason for a lack.
I care.
Stepping aside isn't necessary as well, since Image Line will let FL Studio evolve anyway...and I didn't have to get used to the way fl studio works (pattern based) at all. Since i came from Fasttracker, which works the same way (pattern-based).

There isn't anything lacking, time sig-wise, since it still is a sequencer and pattern based DAW. Now, if they add it, it would be a nice addition, sure.

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woggle wrote: and if FL want to cater for them then fine.
That's the point, and being successful, promotes room for improvement and additional market share.
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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exmatproton wrote:Now, if they add it, it would be a nice addition, sure.
Indeed! :tu:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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liquidsound wrote:
woggle wrote: and if FL want to cater for them then fine.
That's the point, and being successful, promotes room for improvement and additional market share.
Dunno about promoting improvement - for some maybe but not so much for existing users - and no use to me at all. I would be concerned about opportunity cost, there will be quite a bit of overhead in developing and maintaining the time sig thing and that will take away from what to me are more fundamental issues eg lack of auto crossfading on overlapping audio clips

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