Help on understanding time signatures.

[nuffink]

The piano roll can act as much more direct method of musical notation. The pitch and duration of the notes are more accurately represented, as are the accents. The tempo isn't in some subjective, archaic Italian. Most importantly the default position isn't C Major with all else marked as a departure from it.

Velocity curves for dynamics? Little coloured rectangles to represent pitch and duration? It's good for machines. It doesn't matter that the tempi are in "archaic" italian, because you have to come up with other terms which will be less italian but equally subjective. Let's substitute FRANK for RUBATO and tell me how much more accurate it is...

The coloured rectangles and velocity curves do a better job of representation if you ask me.
Think of it from the point of view of a beginner - "So the blobs with a hole in them are worth two of the solid blobs? - Yes unless there's a dot by them". Quality stuff if you're using a quill and ink, no doubt. You wouldn't choose it if you were starting afresh now.

[vurt]

frank rubato is my new caberet stage name, thanks.

[rachmiel]

if yous guys think music rhythmic notation/terminology is obscure and esoteric ... you should check out prosody (the rhythm of (poetic) language). it wins, hands down. ;-)

[Amberience]

I generally write everything out in tab format. I could spend years learning how to write music down in the "proper" and "correct" format... but why bother?

Tab is easier to write, I'm more comfortable with it.
A lot of amateur musicians (the people I admire) work mainly with tab.
Tab can be written out in the same way an email can, and then forwarded - maximum compatibility.

I just don't see "proper" music notation as important. Thus my eyes glaze over when you guys start going on about the differences between 5/4 ad 5/8 - it isn't important to me.

[Sascha Franck]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

[Paulie Phonick]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

One more proof that an instrument inspecific notation is necessary. Personally I don't mind the way rhythms are noted in the standard notation, but I can't grasp the pitch. A piano roll-like chromatic notation could probably be easier to read as all intervals would look the same regardless of the key/scale.

[Amberience]

Yes. She picked it up straight away. Of course the tab numbers were replaced with note names - quite easy to do in software.

[jens]

I doubt there've been many musicians who, when experiencing the inspiration of a new composition, immediately began to struggle with "Oh lord, what meter is this in?" As many posters here have said, you simply feel it - the time signature is just for communicating it later.

I doubt that many of those same musicians kick up a kickass melody and ask "oh Lord, what KEY is this in?", either. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

Time signature is JUST as important as key; the melody stands without knowing it, but if you want to add SENSIBLE and good-sounding rhyhtms without playing guess-n-check then you'd better be well-acquainted with the time you've composed it in. And if your brilliant melody is in A minor and you don't know that and you slam on a c-minor chord it's gonna sound comparably bad.

IMO the rule of music is: 'whatever you just did, we have a word for it'. So the sooner you become acquainted with the theory BEHIND your own style (whether you meant to apply it or not) the sooner you can understand a broader application of techniques to augment it.

wwrong on all accounts imo - when I compose something with an odd time signature I sometimes don't even realize it's not 4/4 as I already mentioned but I can easily solo over it, sing to it, etc. - only when I try to record it I notice that it's odd and then I start counting it - and the same actually goes for keys to some extent - record some chords and start to solo over it - you will hear which notes fit and which don't - you don't even need to have just a minor knowledge about keys and stuff to be able to solo over some chords - addmittedly this knowledge might make it easier for you but it's in no way neccessary. Rules come always secondary to the reality they try to describe and embrace - and it's always only dull academics who try to deny and argue around this simple fact.

[Hovmod]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

One more proof that an instrument inspecific notation is necessary. Personally I don't mind the way rhythms are noted in the standard notation, but I can't grasp the pitch. A piano roll-like chromatic notation could probably be easier to read as all intervals would look the same regardless of the key/scale.

It IS instrument specific (or at least instrument GROUP specific), because the CLEF moves the focus of the five lines so that the range of your instrument is pretty much covered.
One glance at the clef (key) tells you a lot.
And intervals are easy to see in a glance as well: A fourth has one note on the line and one between two lines, for instance. A fifth has a line through both notes, or both are between lines. Regardless of key/scale. It's already covered. Why substitute a system that works for practically all musicians with one that only computer geeks are happy with?

The bpm of the piece of very often given, btw, taking the subjectivity out of all the italian. 'Allegro' is usually qualified with a bpm figure.

A piano roll has all notes between lines, and the grid is infinite. You'd have to specify what the middle grid line signifies anyway, and then you'd have a clef to worry about there too. And how do you present it to the player? On an actual roll? Or in lines on a page with a given amount of... hm ... bars? You'd probably have to limit the amount of different lengths of little rectangles as well, because otherwise the player would have to sit there with a ruler to find out how long to hold the note, and where would you put the velocity figures? On a line below?

[jens]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

One more proof that an instrument inspecific notation is necessary. Personally I don't mind the way rhythms are noted in the standard notation, but I can't grasp the pitch. A piano roll-like chromatic notation could probably be easier to read as all intervals would look the same regardless of the key/scale.

It IS instrument specific (or at least instrument GROUP specific)

but Paulie wrote 'inspecific'

[Hovmod]

It's a little interesting that the first attempts (in europe, at least) at musical notation look a lot more like the midi piano roll than standard notation.

[Hovmod]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

One more proof that an instrument inspecific notation is necessary. Personally I don't mind the way rhythms are noted in the standard notation, but I can't grasp the pitch. A piano roll-like chromatic notation could probably be easier to read as all intervals would look the same regardless of the key/scale.

It IS instrument specific (or at least instrument GROUP specific)

but Paulie wrote 'inspecific'

Right.

I knew that.

uh. Hm.




well,

hm.



right.



(whistling)



Off I go then.

[nuffink]

And intervals are easy to see in a glance as well: A fourth has one note on the line and one between two lines, for instance. A fifth has a line through both notes, or both are between lines. Regardless of key/scale. It's already covered. Why substitute a system that works for practically all musicians with one that only computer geeks are happy with?

Terms like fourth and fifth only make sense in 12TET. They only really make sense when dealing with 7 note scales. Again this is a historical hangover which makes teaching modern theory difficult. Try explaining the 8 note Diminished scales in terms of thirds, fifths and sevenths etc. It's a nightmare.

[JumpingJackFlash]

7/8 would be sounded (most likely) as either "3+3+1/8" (a 6/8 8th notes pattern with an extra 8th) or as "4+3/8" (a 4/4 pattern with a single 8th note dropped).

7/8 would more likely be grouped 3+2+2.
(5/8 would be 3+2, and, 10/8 for example would probably be 3+3+2+2). - Some modern pieces vary this though.

I admit though, as many time as I hear the word, I can't fully comprehend what "downbeats" are. I'm not totally sure, but as an example, in a drum line where you have your 1 and 3 beats being a drum, and 2 and 4 being a snare, the 1 and 2 would be the downbeat, correct? I'm supposing downbeats are the beats which, as reasoning would have me believe, are not accented?

No. 'downbeats' and 'upbeats' refer to how a conductor conducts the music. - If you have ever played in an ensemble you may know, the 1st beat of any bar is always marked with the conductor lowering his baton in front of him (very roughly from head height to chest height), and the final beat in a bar is when the conductor raises his baton up again (roughly from chest height back to head height).

Hence, the first beat of any bar is called the downbeat, and the final beat of the bar is called the upbeat. (downbeats are stronger than upbeats).

(and if you think time signatures are hard now, imagine conducting a piece where the time signature varies almost every bar! - I can tell you that aint easy!)

[Paulie Phonick]

Have you ever tried handing out a tab to some piano player?

One more proof that an instrument inspecific notation is necessary. Personally I don't mind the way rhythms are noted in the standard notation, but I can't grasp the pitch. A piano roll-like chromatic notation could probably be easier to read as all intervals would look the same regardless of the key/scale.

It IS instrument specific (or at least instrument GROUP specific)

but Paulie wrote 'inspecific'

Right.

I knew that.

uh. Hm.




well,

hm.



right.



(whistling)



Off I go then.

yup, inspecific that was - as I find the notation pretty piano specific.

Playing different instruments (keys, guitar, bass) I've found that they only thinking scheme they have in common are intervals. Ever since I've started thinking in intervals - which I picked up on the guitar - I've found playing the piano much easier too. I don't think in terms of black and white keys anymore, but see scales as sets of intervals now - way easier (for me) than memorising how each scale is laid out on the keyboard in each key and makes improvising a lot easier.

So why not ditch all the b and # around the clef and just write chromatically?