Shows us Theory Newbies how to implement chords.

[nuffink]

If you're talking about the dots then experience shows that the vast majority of newbies, even the ones who want to learn, will take one look and find something better to do.

Well the dots are cool, but a piano roll, or even a template of a piano keyboard with the keys in question colored in would be vastly superior to these chord name thingies.

I mean, it's not just 'jazz' and 'classical' that are different. There is a Germanic tradition, a French tradition, an American tradition (non-jazz). I am sure there are others I have forgotten.

Each is, pointlessly, a little different from the others. And each is a cumbersome form of communication.

It's like the whole 'movable do' versus stationary do debacle.

I know, I am probably being irrelevant. But damn how I hate those Roman numerals.

Even if you use the piano roll you still have to have a nomenclature that allows you to discuss abstract concepts. For chordal harmony that nomenclature, for better or worse, is roman numerals.
Yes, there are a lot of detailed differences but every working muso understands the underlying similarities. That is until you get a vociferous advocate of a alternative system who insists that it should be used despite admitting that it has a strictly limited ambit (i.e. it doesn't work outside of diatonic major harmony).

[BertKoor]

But damn how I hate those Roman numerals.

Well, I also prefer writing "C Am F9 Gsus" over "I VIm IV9 Vsus". Not as easy transposable, but it's a popular notation system (amongst guitar players at least)

That system works really well, also in jazz with more complex chords. And if you need notation that's extremely precise then skip the short chord notation and swap to standard staff notations.

[Toxikator]

iim7b5 (pronounced "two minor seven flat five")

It's a jazz name for ii half-diminished 7th (as was already said).

depending on how you use it, it can mean a number of things;

One: It can simply be the diatonic ii7 in a minor key.

Two: it can be a borrowed chord from the parallel minor when used in the major key

Three: Certain analyses, as I understand it, would simply treat the b5 as an alteration.

[nuffink]

iim7b5 (pronounced "two minor seven flat five")

It's a jazz name for ii half-diminished 7th (as was already said).

depending on how you use it, it can mean a number of things;

One: It can simply be the diatonic ii7 in a minor key.

There's a classic example of why the "alternate" naming system doesn't work. Which minor scale?
In natural or harmonic minor that ii7 will be a half diminished chord. In melodic minor it will be a minor 7. The differences between these two chord types are not subtle.
With that cock-eyed system you have to make it explicit which scale you're working with beforehand. Modern music just doesn't work like that.

If it's a ii-7b5 call it a ii-7b5 or II-7b5 or iiø or any other variation you like.

Just don't call it a minor 7. It isn't. Anyone you're trying to teach will get confused. Anyone who knows their shit will think you're an idiot.

[Toxikator]

This is true. I never use the melodic minor (EVER) which is why I referred to it as the "diatonic ii7"; force of habit. Again, I know full well that it's a half-dim 7 (as I said like ONE F*CKING LIKE EARLER) and was just pointing out that in the (natural or harmonic) minor, it's going to be diatonic...

So yeah, you caught me. I forgot the melodic minor (I hate that scale). But even still, I would never NOTATE it as ii7. I referred to it that way, with the explicit qualifier 'diatonic', to indicate that it's not an alteration or other chromatic harmony.

And anyway, I'm pretty sure that, in the classical tradition, all 7ths other than the dominant 7 is notated (outside of the sheet music) as mM, MM, Mm, dm, dd, etc.

[nuffink]

This is true. I never use the melodic minor (EVER) which is why I referred to it as the "diatonic ii7"; force of habit. Again, I know full well that it's a half-dim 7 (as I said like ONE F*CKING LIKE EARLER) and was just pointing out that in the (natural or harmonic) minor, it's going to be diatonic...

So yeah, you caught me. I forgot the melodic minor (I hate that scale). But even still, I would never NOTATE it as ii7. I referred to it that way, with the explicit qualifier 'diatonic', to indicate that it's not an alteration or other chromatic harmony.

And anyway, I'm pretty sure that, in the classical tradition, all 7ths other than the dominant 7 is notated (outside of the sheet music) as mM, MM, Mm, dm, dd, etc.

I wasn't trying to catch you out. You post so often and are wrong so often it would be a full time job. I was merely using your post to show those who do want to learn why your prefered nomenclature is junk.

btw, didn't you have me on mute?

[Toxikator]

I had you on mute, yeah, but I'm past that. Evidently, you are not.

If you think back REEEEEEEAL hard you'll recall that it was not I who used this notation system, and if you look RIGHT THERE IN MY POST you'll see I referred to it as a ii half-dim 7.

I would never use ii7 as a notation ever since it's meaningless; I can't think of a time I wouldn't use iim7. I tend to use the classical system, only slightly adapted... in true classical notation you use two letters; one indicates the triad, the next indicates the 7. I don't use the first letter since the roman numerals already indicate the triad (I means major, i means minor) and skip straight to the second (IM7, iim7, etc). I use the jazz system for dominant 7ths (so I7, rather than Im7 or IMm7, b/c that's confusing), and half-diminished and fully-diminshed chords.

Now here comes the part where you listen the closest: I said it would be the "diatonic ii7" in a minor key; that doesn't mean that it suddenly stops being a half-diminished chord like it was a sentence ago. It just means that, in a minor key, if you play a ii triad and add a DIATONIC 7th, the chord you will have is a half-diminished 7th. I don't know how "A half-diminished 7th chord, in a minor key, is the diatonic ii7" can be construed to mean anything else (excepting the melodic minor, but nuts to that stupid scale )

[nuffink]

Keep going. You're doing a fine job of proving my point.

[Toxikator]

Well okay Nuffink. How would YOU say "diatonic 7th chord on the second scale degree of a minor key"?

"diatonic ii7" works for me. Evidently you have a more effective way of doing so, I'd honestly like to know (since I always just stuck a "7" on if the quality wasn't indicated, but that clearly is confusing to many people)

(and again, since I know this confuses you, when I say "the half-diminished chord is a diatonic ii7" I mean it's a diatonic 7th chord built on the ii scale degree. I do not mean that the half diminished chord is secretly actually a minor 7th chord in the natural minor. That would be stupid.)

[nuffink]

Well okay Nuffink. How would YOU say "diatonic 7th chord on the second scale degree of a minor key"?

"diatonic ii7" works for me. Evidently you have a more effective way of doing so, I'd honestly like to know (since I always just stuck a "7" on if the quality wasn't indicated, but that clearly is confusing to many people)

Tell me which scale it's diatonic to and I'll tell you.

Thanks again for making my point.

[Toxikator]

Well okay Nuffink. How would YOU say "diatonic 7th chord on the second scale degree of a minor key"?

"diatonic ii7" works for me. Evidently you have a more effective way of doing so, I'd honestly like to know (since I always just stuck a "7" on if the quality wasn't indicated, but that clearly is confusing to many people)

Tell me which scale it's diatonic to and I'll tell you.

The natural minor.

You're being obtuse for no reason. The point that I was articulating was that a ii half-dim 7 chord is going to be diatonic to the natural (or harmonic) minor scale. that's what "diatonic ii7" means; it means a ii chord with a 7th, diatonic to the scale. FTR unless otherwise noted "diatonic" means "natural minor", see wikipedia article on diatonicism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic

[nuffink]

The natural minor.

Again. Yet-a-f**king-gain you've had to specify the scale in order make sense.

This is why to quote Dolmetsch yet-a-f**king-gain...

"All minor scales are named 'relative' to the major scale on the same key-note."

Keep going. You'll get it eventually.

[Toxikator]

The natural minor.

Again. Yet-a-f**king-gain you've had to specify the scale in order make sense.

This is why to quote Dolmetsch yet-a-f**king-gain...

"All minor scales are named 'relative' to the major scale on the same key-note."

Keep going. You'll get it eventually.

Which means you didn't notice that "diatonic" automatically means natural minor (unless you say something like "diatonic to the harmonic minor scale").

You don't get it: okay, let's try it a diff. way. Let's say we're discussing a MM7 chord (aka M7, aka Maj7, aka little-triangle-7, aka what have you).

If I said to you "A M7 chord is going to be the diatonic I7 chord in a major scale", there are really only two things I could mean.

1) that the diatonic tetrachord built on the first scale degree is a M7 chord, or
2) A MM7 is actually a Mm7 on the first scale degree

The second one doesn't even make sense, the first one is obviously what I'm trying to get across, and anyone with half a head could tell that. Instead, you'd rather be pedantic.

[nuffink]

Let me explain it another way.

The third degree of the harmonic minor scale is always spelled biii or bIII because that is its position relative to the major scale built on the same root.

It's never (except by those who are mistaken) spelled iii because that would be relative to a specific minor scale and would therefore need qualifying.

Got it?

[BertKoor]

Two is company, three is a crowd. I'll get my coat...