Why does swing sound so "good" ?

[nuffink]

Swing is different in diff. genres, too. Swing in Rock and the blues is very different from swing in the bebop jazz sense.

In rock, is swing. There's a definite "triplet" quality to it, and in fact if you listen to the solo, or a solo from any other similarly styled song (anything by George Thorogood works nicely) you can hear that triplets are often employed in fast passages.

This is extremely DIFFERENT from a jazz swing (or shuffle, depending on your perspective I suppose), which comes out more like , and is far more ambiguous in its timing.

The thread's never quite over until you start making things up. Jazz swing and rock swing eh?
"extremely DIFFERENT" eh?

[Sascha Franck]

I guess just to say that when some people talk about swing, they're talking about that slower, "heavy" swing which is pretty metrically well-defined (to the point where fast passages will actually include the removed center triplet) while others may be referring to a faster "shuffle" swing and therefore wouldn't think it appropriate to talk about swing in such rigid terms...

This is all unimportant.
Swing: Delay the offbeat 8th (or 16th) so it falls on or tends towards the third 8th triplet. And that's about it from the definition point of view.

As said numerous times before: There's a whole shitload of interpretational options when it comes to different styles, but the basic definition is still just the same.
Timing and phrasing variations are present in "unswung" music as well. It's just that in a few - especially jazzy - styles these are given special attention. Even so much that they're becoming part of the "swing style".
Yet, all that doesn't change anything with the definition per se. A score index such as "swing" or "shuffle" will be interpreted the same all over the world. Offbeats are delayed by an amount the parttaking musicians agree to, an "ideal" swing would have a ratio of 2:1. There's nothing more to add to the basic definition.

[dirty oscillators]

I linked to the article. Why wouldn't I? There's nothing contrary in there.

And I'll ask again. I assert that swing is a simple technique that can be taught, Ubiety thinks it's something you can only get from spending decades in the Jazz Messengers.
Where do you stand?

Publish your one paged book "Swing for Dummies" that reads, "Swing is delayed eighth notes." And be done with it. A Pulitzer is sure to follow.

blah blah blah... nuffink is entitled to his opinion.

just like i'm entitled to my opinion that NONE of this is nuclear engineering. it's music damn it and it's not difficult to FEEL something. unless of course your not a musician/artist.

[dirty oscillators]

ahem, gentlemen.. I think maybe we need to agree to differ, let basic channel come back and say what he needs, then we can all just move on?

DSP

why do you keep coming back to this thread if you want to move on?

[dirty oscillators]

A score index such as "swing" or "shuffle" will be interpreted the same all over the world. Offbeats are delayed by an amount the parttaking musicians agree to, an "ideal" swing would have a ratio of 2:1. There's nothing more to add to the basic definition.

What do you mean, "an ideal swing would have a ratio of 2:1"??

Is there really a more "ideal" swing than another swing? Or are you talking about some kind of reference point?

[Ubiety]

I linked to the article. Why wouldn't I? There's nothing contrary in there.

And I'll ask again. I assert that swing is a simple technique that can be taught, Ubiety thinks it's something you can only get from spending decades in the Jazz Messengers.
Where do you stand?

Publish your one paged book "Swing for Dummies" that reads, "Swing is delayed eighth notes." And be done with it. A Pulitzer is sure to follow.

blah blah blah... nuffink is entitled to his opinion.

just like i'm entitled to my opinion that NONE of this is nuclear engineering. it's music damn it and it's not difficult to FEEL something. unless of course your not a musician/artist.

Clean your oscillators.

[Sascha Franck]

What do you mean, "an ideal swing would have a ratio of 2:1"??

The onbeat 8th would be 2 times the length of the offbeat 8th. 2:1.

Is there really a more "ideal" swing than another swing?

Well, not sure whether "ideal" is a proper term, perhaps "mathematically following the basic rule" would be more appropriate. Or "stereotype". I found "ideal" to be the better word.
In real life, this "ideal" swing is only happening with certain tempi. If it gets faster, there's usually less swing.

[dirty oscillators]

Well, not sure whether "ideal" is a proper term, perhaps "mathematically following the basic rule" would be more appropriate. Or "stereotype". I found "ideal" to be the better word.
In real life, this "ideal" swing is only happening with certain tempi. If it gets faster, there's usually less swing.

So, like a reference point maybe?

[dirty oscillators]

I linked to the article. Why wouldn't I? There's nothing contrary in there.

And I'll ask again. I assert that swing is a simple technique that can be taught, Ubiety thinks it's something you can only get from spending decades in the Jazz Messengers.
Where do you stand?

Publish your one paged book "Swing for Dummies" that reads, "Swing is delayed eighth notes." And be done with it. A Pulitzer is sure to follow.

blah blah blah... nuffink is entitled to his opinion.

just like i'm entitled to my opinion that NONE of this is nuclear engineering. it's music damn it and it's not difficult to FEEL something. unless of course your not a musician/artist.

Clean your oscillators.

yes mother...

[herodotus]

And herodotus: As far as notating even 8ths goes, it simply makes more sense. At higher tempi, things almost entirely lose any triplet feel. In addition, a lot of standards derive from originally evenly played tunes. And of course, 8th notes with a "swing" index allow for a greater amount of variation. Sometimes you swing more, sometimes less.

Well, if the tempo is faster then sure, write straight eighths.

I am coming at this from the point of view of a guy who often uses a notation editor to write music. Trying to write something with a triplet feel in straight eighth notes in that context is counterintuitive to the point of madness in my experience.

And as a drummer, I run into inconsistencies that might not be encountered as often by other instrumentalists

For example, what about the not infrequent occasions when the 'middle' of the triplet is played?

Like, say, the intro to Sing, sing, sing:



How would one write that using only eighth notes?

[duncanparsons]

ahem, gentlemen.. I think maybe we need to agree to differ, let basic channel come back and say what he needs, then we can all just move on?

DSP

why do you keep coming back to this thread if you want to move on?

because I'm interested in it I'd like to know what the OP thinks in the light of the background hiss we've set off. There've been a few resonances, and a fair bit of beating; but what conclusion is there? maybe bc should bring it to a close in the time honoured fashion of the chairman who convened a debate...

...will that do...?

DSP

[Toxikator]

an "ideal" swing would have a ratio of 2:1. There's nothing more to add to the basic definition.

I said this 6 months ago and you fought me tooth and nail about it!

The thread's never quite over until you start making things up. Jazz swing and rock swing eh?
"extremely DIFFERENT" eh?

Just listen to the examples. When blues/rock musicians talk about swing they're typically talking about the shifting of 8th notes. They're less likely than Jazz musicians to be thinking of the shifting of 16th notes.

When I think of swinging rock music, I think of things like George, ZZ Top, that sort of thing. When I think of swinging Jazz, I think of Benny Goodman, Bebop, that sort of thing.

Two very different sounds and styles, since in the former the swing is very metrically close to the 2:1 ratio, whereas (and in fact I only say this because you argued so hard to prove it to me a while back) the faster note shuffle is closer to a 1.5:1 ratio and is not necessarily well thought-of in triplets.

[Sascha Franck]

How would one write that using only eighth notes?

Of course you wouldn't. You'd write it as triplets. But you'd only use triplets for that very quarter beat. And your score will defenitely look quite a lot cleaner.
Seriously, swing written out as triplets makes no sense in almost all styles. All it does is messing up your score layout royally.
Of course, for editing, it's quite a different thing, but I think some score editors know about swing...

[nuffink]

Two very different sounds and styles, since in the former the swing is very metrically close to the 2:1 ratio, whereas (and in fact I only say this because you argued so hard to prove it to me a while back) the faster note shuffle is closer to a 1.5:1 ratio and is not necessarily well thought-of in triplets.

Yes. That's what everybody except Ubiety and possibly BosseJo (who knows?) has been saying all through the thread. Loudly and very clearly. The swing ratio is not fixed.
This doesn't make it rock swing or jazz swing or for that matter French swing, German swing or Swahili swing. It's just swing.

[rp314]

Well as with everything else musical, there are general "rules" and then there's creative license.

In Jazz, there are conventions, as with most musical styles, and swing has generally been defined fairly well throughout this thread. However, folks like drummer Elvin Jones made their mark by modifying what came before him by often playing "around" the established beat of the 12/8 structure of swing (which is not to deny that he could also play straight ahead swing very adroitly ).

There's a long tradition of people doing this in music. Ravel liked waltzes but what he did to the form in La Valse was rather different from composers who've gone a more traditional route, say, Richard Rodgers' in "My Favorite Things".