Reaper Gets Deeper

[Astromann]

What I don't like specifically is:

1. Menu navigation. The right-click menus are overloaded with options.

True about the right menus...I dont need to use them that much tho

The organization and naming conventions for features and controls is obscure in many places.

Thats not entirely true because you can assign commonly used tasks like naming, splitting etc...to the main toolbar ...it doesnt get much less obscure than that.

2. Standard and uninspiring use of windows components in lieu of custom GUI controls. Logic and the latest version of Pro Tools are great models for good design of controls. Reaper still relies on the OS for controls. It's flat, boring and reeks of an unfinished UI.

I definitely agree with this!

3. Workflow. Well, I just don't like it. Matter of opinion really. I do like the IO and routing features though. What they have done with routing is pretty creative but overall, it's too funky for me.

Well as I stated before the workflow is what you set it up to be (of course some will argue that you cant change this or that) BUT you CAN CHANGE a hell of a lot more than you can in Logic.
I have it working exactly like Logic in 2 weeks, I have used Logic for 20 years and I dont just track, I use it for very complex orchestral arrangements and so on.
I have Reaper working almost as efficiently in a few short weeks.
If you take the time to set it up, it will work how you want it too.
All this stuff about the workflow is a mess and so tells me, is that many of those that say this have not really taken the time to set it up nicely.
If you dont want to do that because it is too much trouble...cool!! thats your choice.
But for those that do...Reapers workflow is pretty darn awesome!!

Overall, Reaper still reminds me of Winamp. Who cares if I can skin it? Give me something professional that looks and feels great to use.

Well..."something professional that "looks" contradicts what you said earlier quote "Who cares if I can skin it?"
Most people would agree that "looks" means appearance which means "skin" doesnt it? Change the skin...you change the "looks"
If you meant to say layout...you can largely change that too...undock the transport, hide parts of the mixer, change the menu structure etc, and save it as a screenset, not as configurable yet as I would like, but far more than many of the leading "DAW;s" that so many revere!

I agree with you on the OS windows tho.

As far as "feel" goes...it hiccups less than Logic for me, the engine is 64 bit, it feels solid to me...and I am fussy.
Logic has audio overloads since it was on the PC...its no shinning star!!
(BTW I am using Logic as an example here...because Logic, Cubase and PT are the leaders in DAW's in many peoples minds)
But to my mind Reaper is moving much faster than Logic and is easily as stable and already more configurable...and I dont mean just skins!!
Take (as an example)...humanize, lets just say a particular user...uses that feature a lot, now in Reaper you can assign that feature to a track control (inspector) and save it as a template, duplicate that track and use it freely, in Logic you have to open a midi window and scale thru a menu and apply it...or quantize and then use the extra quantize options to release the percentage value...thats several more clicks in Logic and thats only one example.
I could give many more!! but I am sure you get the idea.
I love Logic...but many of the workflow comments by some here about Reaper are from users that have not really looked into what you can do with it if you care to spend just a little time actually learning how to work it.

If they want to reach a larger market they'll need to overhaul the GUI and come into the new mellinium with the design. But hey, ymmv and imo

Actually my opinion is very different than yours here...quite the opposite.
I actually design 3d models and software as well as composing so I have to deal with user ease on daily basis.
I say Reaper is at least half way in the new millenium and Logic, Cubase etc...are definitely in the old Millenium (prepares for flames...how dare he say that!!)
Why? read the posts above...the future of software should be totally user configurable...right thru from menus, workspaces, toolbars, keystrokes.
And Reaper appears to be moving in this direction...Logic doesn't!!
Now if Apple or Steinberg suddenly adopted this approach...many here that bag Reaper will say...what a great vision!! (Funny old world!!)
OK Reaper is not fully there yet, but they definitely dont need an interface designer, they need to be brave and go in the direction they appear to be headed in.

[billybk1]

Actually I use one of the Veico themes and I have modified it a lot and it looks great!!

Hey, I am big fan of the Veico theme as well. Sorta has the flair of Presonus S1. I would be interested in seeing your "Mod". Do you have a pic of it posted somewhere? If not, how about sharing at the Neico/Veico thread as a personal "Mod", with the theme link. I am always interested in how reaper themes get personalized to ones tastes, as I am sure others are as well.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=44833

Cheers,

Billy Buck

[C-note]

No problems with MIDI in Reaper over here.

Yeah, I don't have any midi issues in Reaper either, since I quit using it... Never had a good midi session in Reaper for the 3 years it sat on my hard drive, but I have 0 midi issues now that it's been uninstalled!

Has the audio handling improved for you as well?

Yes - Actually I just read Bullshark's explanation in the Reaper Heresy thread - http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3847584 - as to why it sucks as a midi host. I suspected this but don't remember ever seeing it explained this way. Justin was just trying to make a better Vegas which didn't have midi at the time evidently. This completely explains the lack of project management and a proper feature road map that is the current Reaper.

C

[Astromann]

Hey, I am big fan of the Veico theme as well. Sorta has the flair of Presonus S1. I would be interested in seeing your "Mod". Do you have a pic of it posted somewhere? If not, how about sharing at the Neico/Veico thread as a personal "Mod", with the theme link. I am always interested in how reaper themes get personalized to ones tastes, as I am sure others are as well.
Billy Buck

Hi Billybuck...I am on a deadline for few days and have little time to do a screenshot etc...and post it to the reaper forums.
What I have basically done is take all the harsh contrasts out of the midi windows and arrange...so you dont go mental.LOL!!
I left the basic pngs unchanged...cause (I like them) and I havent yet done the track and Master leds.
But if you PM me...I can send it to you via you sendit.
I hope this helps
Cheers

[blueman]

However as any app requires investment of time, why not use that time to modify and app to work how you like to? Having seen the development of this concept in 3d apps, this is a very exciting approach...and although it wont win everyone, to those that use it, Reaper becomes a very productive tool, not counter productive as some suggest.

I can get on board with that philosophy but it's the learning curve that takes some doin'. I write (and record) with a guitar in my lap so, I just want to be able to capture ideas without being arsed by things getting in the way. This is a pipe dream of course because any DAW is already (by default) in the way.

Learning DAWs and having to fidget with a mouse and keyboard while I try to sustain the inspiration to write and record is a juggling act at best. Well, what can I do? The easier the better. I just want the damn software to stay out my way and be inspiring to use. If it forces my hand to learn its quirky way of working then I'm wasting precious energy that could be going into creativity, not left brain thinking.

I bought Reaper because I believe in its future. It has tremendous potential but, it hasn't totally matured yet. Perhaps for advanced users, its everything one needs but for novice users or songwriters it's still cumbersome and gets in the way of creating in real time without breaking the flow. Overall, Reaper feels (to me) like a product in its final stages of beta. It's not quite where Live, Logic and Pro Tools are in terms of the UI and usability. Just my opinion anyway

Well, maybe I just need a Reaper DVD (or, Reaper for Dummies book) that can dumb it down to a guitarist's level

[blueman]

...........

OK Reaper is not fully there yet, but they definitely dont need an interface designer, they need to be brave and go in the direction they appear to be headed in.

Great post! Too long to dupe all of your responses but your points were well received I think you clarified for me (thanks ) what it is I don't like about Reaper: It takes real, actual work and knowledge to set it up and its not immediately intuitive. I still contend that this fact is and will continue to be a deal breaker for all but the so-called advanced users.

Well, maybe I'll hunker down one weekend (or, over the holiday) and just learn it. I would have to customize the interface quite a bit to get it where I'm happy with it. Any recommendations for a starting place?

[bullshark]

I write (and record) with a guitar in my lap so, I just want to be able to capture ideas without being arsed by things getting in the way.

That I know, believe me. I often have to play and record bass while manipulating the DAW AND keeping a singer and a guitar player happy with their level.

The way I've found not to go crazy is to take care of the little thing ahead of time. So, for example, setting you're most often used command to a single key ie: I changed the record button from "CTRL+R" to "R" only and already a big improvement in sanity. Then setting up templates for what you do most often, so, project templates, track templates, FX chain etc and named so they actually mean something. Same for hardware I/O, I took 5 minutes to name all of them, by destination so I could know where everything goes and come from, saved me a trip to the asylum right there. It's all in the details, but of course that goes for any piece of software.

[Astromann]

Great post! Too long to dupe all of your responses but your points were well received I think you clarified for me (thanks ) what it is I don't like about Reaper: It takes real, actual work and knowledge to set it up and its not immediately intuitive. I still contend that this fact is and will continue to be a deal breaker for all but the so-called advanced users.

Hi Blueman
Yes you may well be right about this...my first 3 days in Reaper were horrible and frustrating, I became angry then depressed cause I really wanted to like it...but it kept getting up my nose and I was fighting it.
However most of the basic tasks were pretty easy, tack assign,inserting VSTi's and recording and so on.
The break through came after about 4 days (not long days) just playing with it for a while, then going back and so on, but not giving up.
Some of the posts on the user forums helped too.

Well, maybe I'll hunker down one weekend (or, over the holiday) and just learn it. I would have to customize the interface quite a bit to get it where I'm happy with it. Any recommendations for a starting place?

Everyone has their own list of commonly used tasks.
I wanted to see if I could get my personal ones happening first.

Probably the first one is getting in and out of record quickly..(both in audio and midi)
Personally I like to play from the left locater...that way I can left click and drag on the top timeline (I do this in Logic) and play from the left locater.
So I assigned the key "L" to that and created a custom action to play from the left locater every time I hit L
Now if I want to record from the left locater I assigned another custom action to the * key...so everytime I hit that key I record from the left locater and when I hit it again it drops out of recording.
This was done by assigning 2 actions "Transport Record and "Go to start of time selection"
Once you know how to do this (and its quite easy) then Reaper starts to open up as a whole different ball game.
So any mods and actions and stuff you change you then save it as a further template build.

Another of my often used tasks is input transpose (cause I am a guitar player and play shit keyboards)
I found it the most useful form in the "JS 1X MIDI/Tool II"
the free plug ins for Reaper....(you probably have those...they are easy to find)
You open that MIDI/Tool thru the FX icon in either the track view or mixer channels then
Hit the parameter button in its interface then FX parameter list/Show in Track Controls/ and select transpose (Semitones) bingo a little knob appears in your track controls (inspector) that transposes in semitones.
Now once you have this its easy to apply any of the other functions in the track controls by just right clicking and applying some of the other features in that tool...such as bypass...whatever you want.
And you can assign anything of the FX stuff wether it be native or 3rd party to the track controls in this way...so you create your own inspector in this way, even have important features saved of a particular 3rd party plug you like...such as a chorus or whatever.
Once you have that you can save it as further build to your template and you wont have to do it again.

You probably know that hitting V or P on the track controls toggles the volume and Pan envelopes...automation is another area I use a lot and I love reapers automation approach...anyway I assigned E (for envelopes)to toggle all used envelopes in a selected track.

So I wont go on too long...one of the most important things is to set up the top toolbar how you like to work.
Simply right click on the right of that toolbar and select a particular tool icon and select customize from the flip menu
As an example I assigned a razorblade icon to number 15 and assigned the "split item at edit cursor" command to it.
Now all I do right click on the razorblade and it indents and I can cut wherever I like on audio or midi files and repeatedly until I am finished, then I click the icon again to reset the razorblade.
This is a great feature and very fast once its set up.
These are some approaches...you may know these already.
But I feel like I have the monster tamed to a certain degree by just learning a few simple tasks...already I can do some things much more efficiently than I can do them in Logic because of this.
A good idea is to set yourself a project...I set myself up to do a fairly silly riff based guitar piece with atmospheric and crazy effects ...and I was amazed at the ease of work to do this.
Remember I am not a Reaper power user by any means...I have only used it 6 weeks, but I am very happy with it so far.
Cheers

[Astromann]

The way I've found not to go crazy is to take care of the little thing ahead of time. So, for example, setting you're most often used command to a single key ie: I changed the record button from "CTRL+R" to "R" only and already a big improvement in sanity. Then setting up templates for what you do most often, so, project templates, track templates, FX chain etc and named so they actually mean something. Same for hardware I/O, I took 5 minutes to name all of them, by destination so I could know where everything goes and come from, saved me a trip to the asylum right there. It's all in the details, but of course that goes for any piece of software.

Ha ha Very true and very well said!!

[Astromann]

*1

[aMUSEd]

...........

OK Reaper is not fully there yet, but they definitely dont need an interface designer, they need to be brave and go in the direction they appear to be headed in.

Great post! Too long to dupe all of your responses but your points were well received I think you clarified for me (thanks ) what it is I don't like about Reaper: It takes real, actual work and knowledge to set it up and its not immediately intuitive. I still contend that this fact is and will continue to be a deal breaker for all but the so-called advanced users.

Well obviously that isn't the case as I'm no advanced user by a long chalk and yet I use it perfectly fine every day. It's not rocket science to get basic functionality out of it, I was up and running straight away for most of what I need (even having come from Tracktion which has a really good interface). If you want more advanced functionality then you probably do need to work at it but it seems clear to me that you can work with it at the level you need. Especially now I have made a few minor tweaks in menus (nothing radical) to suit me I find it very usable and although it's not perfect it does more of what I need than other hosts I've used/own.

[jens]

There.... Bmanic?!?

I just said I've never seen anyone report a similar problem and now here's you...




...input-quantize (with a completelely wrong factor) by any chance?

Not sure. I never changed anything so if it is wrong factor then it is by default. This is a completely new system running Windows 7 (would that be a cause in itself? I hope not) but like I said, I experience none of those problems with FL studio nor Energy XT.

It's a Behringer shitty controller running from USB so it is very possible that the midi messages it sends are jittery as all hell but at least the other hosts seem to be able to deal with it.

I've not bothered to really try to solve it yet as I don't like Reaper's piano roll at all meaning I never use it for midi editing in the first place.

EDIT: oh and just to be sure I'm not crazy, I recorded midi and audio at the same time. Audio is dead on (piano player for 15 years.. I'm not THAT bad ) but midi is way off.. randomly. Doesn't seem to be a constant offset.

Cheers!
bManic

hm... that's very odd!

[shogger]

Perhaps they got it so wrong to start with that they have a lot to correct?

A matter of opinion that one!! Not mine tho!!

I didn't write that. That was Duncan.

Shogger

[Astromann]

Perhaps they got it so wrong to start with that they have a lot to correct?

A matter of opinion that one!! Not mine tho!!

I didn't write that. That was Duncan.

Shogger

Oops sorry bout that!

[ubergod]

next version has custom floating tabbed toolbars with custom button labels, making it much easier to set up lots of actions and neat things you might not remember the hotkey for