Supersaw!

[A.M. Gold]

there must have been one person who created the first supersaw. I reckon that person did it in 1991 also.

or maybe it was Roland

They probably own the term at least because it says "super saw" on the JP face plates.

[bwwd]

Urs example is hard to judge cause we cant really judge only one position/amount of detune of supersaw even if every second note was real JP,it doesnt tell much and i would like to hear it with less detune as well and on some chords/melodies vs real JP.

[parry316raver]

i dont think they can own the term Super saw.

you can't trademark the name super saw.

the Roland super saw waveform could be protected though.

some form of super saw was around in the acid house days i might add.


i want a super Ramp wave now though




anyway the supersaw is done to death now.

I can't even come up with new ideas anymore.

Pulse waves are the next big thing.

[tomg]

there must have been one person who created the first supersaw. I reckon that person did it in 1991 also.

or maybe it was Roland

They probably own the term at least because it says "super saw" on the JP face plates.

I read somewhere that it first appeared in the JP-8 and then again in the JP-6 although it wasn't called supersaw.

[tomg]

Video above didnt had supersaw sound so i dont get it ,maybe its time to start behave and help developer instead of linking to favourite vids?

Not what you might call supersaw but it is supersaw. Maybe it's time for you to chill.. Especially if you don't "get it".

[parry316raver]

the Jupiter 8 looks and sounds awesome.

i am looking to get something like this or maybe a Roland jd-800

[bmrzycki]

there are no rules to supersaws as such.

Yes there are. That's why some super-saw algorithms sound wonderful and others sound terrible.

why do you need 7 detuned saws for goodness sake.

I'm sure Roland tested several layers of sawtooth waves and decided on 7 after subjective audio tests.

why not 30 detuned saws with unison ?

Mostly because more does not always mean better. 30 detuned saws will start to sound like filtered noise and not like saws. Think about a single saw harmonic series:
When layering a couple, say 2-4 of these on top of each other there's space in the harmonic series for them to each sit and still be sonically identifiable as saws. However, put 30 together and some of the harmonics of the waves will add in such a way to create the impression of filtered noise + saw, which is nothing like the chorus beating you get with only a few.

[blueghost]

My super saw and super pulse were created with thirteen instances of a handdrawn sample looped in Fruity and detuned by one cent each either side. I wish I could detune less for the high notes, but I'll work on that...

The resultant samples cancel out at certain points and it's from that point to the next cancellation they've been hewn.


Are they the best? They're okay I guess...

[parry316raver]

there are no rules to supersaws as such.

Yes there are. That's why some super-saw algorithms sound wonderful and others sound terrible.

why do you need 7 detuned saws for goodness sake.

I'm sure Roland tested several layers of sawtooth waves and decided on 7 after subjective audio tests.

why not 30 detuned saws with unison ?

Mostly because more does not always mean better. 30 detuned saws will start to sound like filtered noise and not like saws. Think about a single saw harmonic series:
When layering a couple, say 2-4 of these on top of each other there's space in the harmonic series for them to each sit and still be sonically identifiable as saws. However, put 30 together and some of the harmonics of the waves will add in such a way to create the impression of filtered noise + saw, which is nothing like the chorus beating you get with only a few.

Well, i dont have any rules when I create super saws. Rules are there to be broken. 30 detuned saw waves sound great with 50 % Unsion added to the whole sample. I have actually done this. It sounds Phat.


what about a person who is creating Gabber music. A Jet Stream wall of saw noise might be right up their alley.

I make patches for Hardcore Rave music though, not Trance.



When you listen to proper Hardcore/Gabber and even certain kinds of drum and bass you can really hear different super-saws working.

Probably because the producer has not used a standard patch.


thanks for the theory lesson though.

i'm not into theory myself. I use my ears to tell if something sounds ok.



Best

Rob

[A.M. Gold]

Video above didnt had supersaw sound so i dont get it ,maybe its time to start behave and help developer instead of linking to favourite vids?

Not what you might call supersaw but it is supersaw. Maybe it's time for you to chill.. Especially if you don't "get it".

It's ok, he is on a mission from Synth1.

[A.M. Gold]

As far as "rules" for supersaw, it could be looked at two ways.

One way has to acknowledge that we are talking synths here, and, as I'm sure any good KVRer/ian/ist/RAF knows, synthesizers can be capable of creating some sounds that would make ten cats in heat (or even seven detuned cats in heat) seem like a barbershop quartet.

However, I have found that detuning stacked saws can be a fairly rough sounding affair, even to the point of making the waveform sound like it is being run through some kind of distortion effect, so I do think care and, dare I say, science should be applied when trying to design the most generally useful supersaw sound.

[A.M. Gold]

I make patches for Hardcore Rave music though, not Trance.



When you listen to proper Hardcore/Gabber and even certain kinds of drum and bass you can really hear different super-saws working.

Probably because the producer has not used a standard patch.


thanks for the theory lesson though.

i'm not into theory myself. I use my ears to tell if something sounds ok.

Rob, I can see what you're saying, but my own personal needs would run in a different direction, because I would like a supersaw that retains that certain kind of "phatness", but is also something where chords don't turn into a mushy, fuzzy mess that can be very hard to mix. Using a supersaw for lead or bass opens more possibilities because you aren't stacking stacked waves on top of each other the way you are when you play chords. Thus, I'm personally very interested in a super smooth supersaw generator. Even the JP's can sound a little rough at various settings.

[parry316raver]

some good points. chords are important with trance etc..

the one thing i do is, use about 50 % unison added to the complete sample when i have mixed it down to a single wav file.

I use the wusik station for the unison though.



bmrzycki makes a good point about filtered noise + saw

[bmrzycki]

Well, i dont have any rules when I create super saws. Rules are there to be broken. 30 detuned saw waves sound great with 50 % Unsion added to the whole sample. I have actually done this. It sounds Phat.

what about a person who is creating Gabber music. A Jet Stream wall of saw noise might be right up their alley.

I make patches for Hardcore Rave music though, not Trance.

When you listen to proper Hardcore/Gabber and even certain kinds of drum and bass you can really hear different super-saws working.

I'm not into theory myself. I use my ears to tell if something sounds ok.

Hey Rob,
My intention was not to criticize your patchmaking skills in the realm of Hardcore Rave. If the style of music you make works with these wall-of-sound 30 oscillator patch then more power (or oscillators) to you!

However, I was under the impression we were talking about a very specific sound that Urs is attempting to recreate. When you asked why bother with only 7 and not 30 saws I tried to answer accordingly. The more saws you add eventually changes the sound to something not-supersaw in the JP-8X sense. There's something unique when only a couple of sawtooths carefully detuned and adding more changes it.

To my ears it sounds like:

1 saw - normal sawtooth
2 saws - interesting beating pattern
3-8 saws - the "supersaw" range
8+ saws - starts to sound like high-pass white noise + a 3-8 supersaw preset. The more saws added, the more pronounced the "white noise" portion of the patch becomes.

Each of these sounds are useful in the right context. I'd love to see Urs really nail the 3-8 saw range (and secretly hope it comes to Zebra one day).

Cheers!

[parry316raver]

hi bmrzycki, what about adding unison though ?

that would smooth out any noise and create a well balanced sound.

i understand what you are saying




it is getting harder to create new sounding patches with Super saws.

for me anyway.




Best

Rob