Pianoteq 4 - oh wow!

[headquest]

Yes, the historic instruments alone justify that price! The harpsichords are absolutely stunning (I have a harpsichord playing diploma from the Royal College of Music, so for me it's a huge draw, and the best virtual harpsichord I have heard).

In fact, for most players, I think Stage is absolutely all you need anyway... and you might find that if you spend extra it is more worthwhile to buy the EP add-ons rather than the "Standard" upgrade.

[EvilDragon]

The price is entirely justified. If it's too much, get Stage first, then upgrade to Standard later on only by paying the price difference. It's like a lease payment.


And don't forget you're not buying just one piano here. In fact, you're getting MUCH more than just one piano - historical pianos, harpsichords, and demos of all optional add-ons (electric pianos, chromatic percussion, steel pans, other piano models...). All this for 250€? I think that's entirely fine!

Maybe I am just spoiled, but comparing that price with the average of (really great) VIs currently available, I find it pricey. I am not questioning it's quality (if I was, I would not be considering buying it).

OK, sum the price of 3 average piano libraries, two average harpsichord libraries, historical piano libraries which don't actually exist, and you will arrive at more than 250€. And it wouldn't be as tweakable as PTQ Standard is.


So yeah, perhaps a tiiiny bit spoiled? :/ 250€ is a great price for everything that's contained. Don't forget that Standard can load and play all Pro version presets (with all per-note edits in there) created by other users in the FXP library on Pianoteq's site.

[coincidental]

Yes, the historic instruments alone justify that price!

I couldn't agree more: the Pleyel, the Erard, the harpsichords, the cimbalom - these are what first sold it to me, even more than the "main attraction" pianos. And you get so much with just the basic Stage package that it represents fantastic value: these pianos are for playing!

[fmr]

Yes, the historic instruments alone justify that price!

I couldn't agree more: the Pleyel, the Erard, the harpsichords, the cimbalom - these are what first sold it to me, even more than the "main attraction" pianos. And you get so much with just the basic Stage package that it represents fantastic value: these pianos are for playing!

OK - I think we need some new perspectives here:
1. TBH, what I heard in the trial is good, but is not something to die for, in what concerns the piano sound strictly speaking, but I am curious to see what can we do by tweaking. That's why I am interested in the standard version.
2. Therefore, the player doesn't interst to me at all, so, no, I don't think it's a good value (a player is NEVER a good value to me).
3. Regarding the "historical" instruments, besides the harpsichord and the cimbalom, all the others are also of null value to me. I frankly don't care how the pianofortes sounded (except if we are talking of a recording of Beethoven by Paul Badura-Skoda).
So, I think I am entitled to have an opinion, and, IMO, it is pricey - end of story. This is IMO, considering lots of variables. Of course, I accept there are other opinions, but it's useless to point what is there for free. When I buy a synth, I don't care if it comes with 150 pre-programmed sounds, or with 1.500 pre-programmed sounds. I just care what I can do with it. And I usually don't buy libraries, unless very specific ones, for very specific purposes.
I am interested in Pianoteq because of the technology involved and because, NOW, it starts to be able to compete with sampled pianos (again, IMO).
And, most of all, I am interested in it because it is tweakable, which means we can come with bizarre sounds, that may even not resemble a piano anymore.
So, I would probably also need to spend some extra cash in the vibraphone and xylophone add-on, as well as some others.
That's what I am interested about - sound research and experimentation, not the historical recreations. So, please stop pointing what I get for free. You have to understand I can read what's there, and that I already got some information about it.

[EvilDragon]

OK, even not counting in the free stuff, the tweakability of Standard version, especially microphone positioning page along with sending each mic to separate plugin output, is something that is definitely worth 150 euros alone, IMO. Not to mention around 30 other physical parameters that are adjustable, and effects section is excellent as well (plus, you can load your own impulses).

Comparing it with any piano sample library is like apples and oranges - you don't get this kind of flexibility with ANY sample library (nor you ever will). If that alone is not worth the price, I don't know what is.

[coincidental]

OK - I think we need some new perspectives here:

Fair enough, it sounds like you're clear about what you're looking for, and that's always helpful when considering a purchase.

Unusually for me, I'm more interested in playing these instruments than editing them - and I was pleased to read that others enjoy the historical instruments as much as I do.

Yes, the Pro version is at the pricey end of the VSTi spectrum, but it all depends what value it has for you. Physical modeling synthesis is highly responsive when playing, and for those who are happy with the Stage version, this gives you an excellent package that supercedes or complements multiple sample libraries at a good price. When approaching it more as a sound design tool, I can see that the responsiveness could be a boon too - and possibly result in unusual and novel instruments, as opposed to sound generators. I've not got round to demoing it, so I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who's delved deep and used this engine for more radical sound design.

[musicdoc]

I keep seeing all these glowing reviews for pianoteq and every 6 months or so I'll look at the website or try the latest demo. But, it still just sounds wrong, woody, kind of tubby and just a little strange. In a mix it can work but alone... I'll take XLN or sampletekk or even Native Instruments any day.

[EvilDragon]

Alone is where it works EXCEPTIONALLY well.


If the new Blüthner sounds "wrong" to you, perhaps you forgot how a real piano is supposed to sound and behave.

[bebop]

Acoustic piano is my main instrument, and I play(ed) many digital pianos and software pianos too, via various headphones and monitoring systems.

None of them has ever given me the kind of fatigue, I mean physical hearing fatigue and nervous fatigue, even working for hours continuously, any time of the day or night, than the Pianoteq demos for the few minutes I could bare to test them. I don't know what happens with this software, but every time I try it, same fatigue happens, my ears hurt with instant tinnitus, I feel a deep need to sleep or rest immediately, and the least ambient noise after that is affecting my mood and feels just exaggerate and very disturbing.

I would really like to be fond of this software, for it would be so convenient to use, but despite the fact that it sounds much better pianistically speaking with each upgrade, its minimal quality as a product is not even met yet : it is just so "toxic" I can't even use it for the entire 20 minutes of the demo time.

Am I the only one feeling this fatigue, has anyone an explanation for that? Can you really spend hours exercising, learning, playing on this software instrument at all? Any testimony welcome.

[bob bobwood]

Sorry to hear about this problem you're having bebop, and though you seem to get it with this product it may be worthwhile sticking in another thread as well to widen the probability of a response or of similar problems. Not sure which thread though. And I hope there is a resolution for you at the end.

[Krakatau]

changing to highest sample rate perhaps ?

[EvilDragon]

Am I the only one feeling this fatigue, has anyone an explanation for that? Can you really spend hours exercising, learning, playing on this software instrument at all? Any testimony welcome.

Yeah, I can play Pianoteq for hours without any fatigue at all. Well, ANY virtual instrument, really, I just don't get this fatigue you're talking about. I presume your brain is messing with you a lot, it could be psychosomatic too. Sorry to hear that.

[bebop]

Well I guess the solution is not to use the Pianoteq for now...

At least I keep trying the demos in hope it improves, but it doesn't. I suspect the issue lies in some psychoacoustic elements of the piano as it is placed into space in Pianoteq. If I try to cut the reverb completely, and move around the piano a simple couple of mics or a binaural capsule, the effect is damped, but the sound becomes really aggressive and dry, and I can't find a microphones placement delivering a balanced neutral sounding avoiding this impression of crossover resonances.

In the end with Pianoteq, either the piano is hidden behind the room simulation, either it is dried to the bones with no flesh around to make it sing, and all in all it seems impossible to reach the average stereo sound from the inside that makes most other products warm or neutral enough to catch your attention (or let you forget it) on the long run. If you add the fact that the Pianoteq is still a little artificial sounding, as I tell you, the result for me is an immediate sound pressure increase leading to pain and fatigue minutes after I try to play it (and it's not about the sound level either, which, by the way, is 0db by default, quite high indeed.) It may trigger some harmonics that raise the level of my tinnitus, but I never felt this with another piano (and some did sound muddy!, but never harassing like this). I wish Pianoteq could at least propose some dry decent presets with another standard mics implementation technique (inside the piano) for the rest of us. In the real world, most pianos are located in poor acoustic rooms that don't have a noticeable reverb, that would be a fair start to begin with in a piano software maybe. That would help (me at least) go beyond the pain and find out for good if it plays and work well enough to be the ideal virtual piano. And I would not like to realise in the end the sound engine in Pianoteq itself is responsible for the hearing fatigue, but maybe that's the case! At least for now as it is I'm safe with an inconclusive opinion...

Also, I think expressing this distress about Pianoteq in this thread is enough, if it doesn't find an echo here, I would blame on the bad health of my hearing (that would be an unsafe conclusion though...)

[EvilDragon]

I would blame on the bad health of my hearing (that would be an unsafe conclusion though...)

That's actually the most probable conclusion, since over a dozen beta testers (and not a single user from what I'm aware of) are not reporting tinnitus inducing issues such as yours, which makes your case an isolated one...


I don't mean to insult or anything, I hope you understand this.

[AnalogGuy1]

Just another random response from a Pianoteq user...unlike many posters here I'm not particularly well-trained (weekend warrior cover band player) but I don't get the fatigue issue with Pianoteq that bebop describes. It sounds horrible though. I use Pianoteq because I love the combination of expression I can get from it, how easily I can tweak its EQ depending on the song, and the speed with which it loads (important when playing live!). I prefer the built-in piano in my RD-700GX when using defaults (less boomy bass), but I can tweak Pianoteq to get the exactly the sounds I want in ways that I cannot with the Roland.

If it makes any diff, I don't get ear fatigue with any soft synth instruments unless they're saturating, but I know exactly what bebop is describing because I get it when listening to the highly compressed top 40's music my 7 year old son loves. It is EXACTLY what he describes. Exactly. It would be terrible to have an instrument I play do that to me! Sorry bebop; run away and make music with something else.