Reason sound doesn't sell is not true

[goldenanalog]

So what happens in the meantime is that sales plummet regardless of the glitz and glam of their marketing efforts.Nothing, and I mean Nothing will effect change better then a diving revenue stream.

At some point they'll have to admit the problem, and perhaps start distributing a valid SDK that allows the Devs to natively compile their products for apples-to-apples CPU loading equal to The props own crop.

Sometimes: It's really hard to let go, you know? In a way: they would be totally giving in - because once the *real* SDK is out there...what do they have left, but their user base?

They may elect to sell out before that happens, just so they don't have to face that fire up close and personal.

They just may not have the intestinal fortitude to go through that alone.

[Tronam]

The op has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. The reason audio engine nulls to infinity with every other major daw out there, and I myself have done this testing extensively. No one buy into this please, please. It's not GS here lol.
On the other hand the stock factory sounds are 95% thin and terrible, so if that is what he is indeed talking about, then yes, before RE's came around I do agree that the stock reason sound is absolutely thin and harshly digital. I experienced this myself when I could not get any decent sounds even with the best refills when only the factory devices were concerned. I could never ever get a song I was recreating in reason to sound even remotely as good as the first version I had done in logic with many third party plugins, and that was commented on by a few people, not just me. REs changed that, and hence how I got into reason heavily, but also why I left it cause of the massive RE performance problem that still exists to this day, and likely always will (cause they really won't acknowledge it). So its a double edged sword. If you want performance, use factory instruments which honestly besides Thor to some degree, I think are absolutely shocking, or use REs and be prepared to do a lot of bouncing or buy yourself the fastest machine known to mankind.
However sound wise, reason with re's like predator will sound identical to logic with au predator, for example.

I think part of what can make Reason more challenging to get sounding "full" or expansive is that all of its synths begin raw and dry. You're essentially starting out with fundamental building blocks. For experienced sound designers this isn't a problem because you can construct your own effects banks to your heart's content, but without a good (and judicious) ear for such things, you can easily end up creating a pretty muddy soundscape that doesn't sound good at all. The best material out of Reason I've heard are from people who build up layers of sound through combinator grouping of multiple synths, not just for different frequencies, but also for left and right channels. You stop viewing the synths as individual instruments and more interchangeable pieces contributing to a greater whole. Take Subtractor for example, Reason's ancient, much maligned 13 year old softsynth. A raw instance of that is about as edgy, digital and dated as it gets compared to the modern wonders of the VST world, but group even two of them up with slightly detuned left and right channels and the difference is quite noticeable. This is just a simple little chord sequence using two raw Subtractors without any effects at all:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ctorx2.mp3

Not terrible and also not really that "thin" is it?

[deep'n'dark]

I cahnged my mind.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[Tronam]

Yes tronam that sound is a perfect example of what I mean, sorry.

Hmm, well the sound can pretty much be whatever you want it to be, especially when you factor in the sampler and more recently audio tracks. Sure, Subtractor alone doesn't hold up very well to scrutiny, but it's still useful for all sorts of things and the whole package has enough variety that if an individual synth doesn't offer what you want, any number of them can be mixed and matched together to create hybrids. That's part of Reason's charm, though it can also be one of its challenges. The combinator was such a clever idea and somewhat ahead of its time in 2005. It seems like all of the DAWs have been incorporating some version of it nowadays.

[xalama qo]

This is just a simple little chord sequence using two raw Subtractors without any effects at all:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ctorx2.mp3

Not terrible and also not really that "thin" is it?

Ha! That's lovely!
My Reason investment ended at R4, but with a little lateral thinking it's a really expansive sound design playground.

[Flandersh]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

[Davias]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

Thanks for this information. This confirm my own experience. I always though it was inherent of the audio engine but if it comes from their crappy coding of factory devices, then it is another story. I read the post and they pretend it does nothing bad to the sound but I don't agree with them, impossible to take a kick drum for instance and having it play in Reason with same quality than outside Reason. Last version tested : 6. So maybe they fix it since that. Or maybe my brain and my ears and my computer have problems.

[Tronam]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

Have you actually read that 2003 post in its entirety?: It's funny to me how prized so many samplers have been over the years specifically for the fact that they "changed the sound" the moment you loaded up the sample. You could only ever hope for a perfect copy if you played the note only at root pitch anyway. Loading up a better quality sample is going to give you a lot more musical mileage than worrying about an imperceptible 0.004% pitch variation.

[Tronam]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

Thanks for this information. This confirm my own experience. I always though it was inherent of the audio engine but if it comes from their crappy coding of factory devices, then it is another story. I read the post and they pretend it does nothing bad to the sound but I don't agree with them, impossible to take a kick drum for instance and having it play in Reason with same quality than outside Reason. Last version tested : 6. So maybe they fix it since that. Or maybe my brain and my ears and my computer have problems.

I think it's a lot more likely that your perception of quality loss is directly tied to volume, which is easily the most influential factor of all. Propellerheads confirmed years ago that in order to help prevent easy overage on the mixers, I believe they're outputs were all reduced by something like 6db. So, comparative to other stuff on your computer, Reason's output would often be quieter. The psychological power of this volume disparity is not to be underestimated.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Davias]

Shame about the YouTube compression back then.

Hard to say if it was youtube or not but it was muddy yes

First I heard "waaaw what nice sounds" and then when everything came into play the drums were buried behind the rest. I guess the guy is a talented mixer for compensate that so well ^^

[chk071]

That reminds me off the discussion on how people are able to hear that the newer Prodigy albums were made in Reason. I never read something like that about newer Beastie Boys albums though, although they use Reason too afaik.

[Tronam]

Hard to say if it was youtube or not but it was muddy yes

First I heard "waaaw what nice sounds" and then when everything came into play the drums were buried behind the rest. I guess the guy is a talented mixer for compensate that so well ^^

Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on in some of those parts and I didn't notice much use of ducking for the drums as I'm used to hearing really obviously in dance music these days to let the kick punch through. I don't think Michael Kastrup would mind me posting a better quality version of his demo tune. He used to have them posted here in the forum years ago to help promote his refill project.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ase_03.mp3

And as a side bonus, I sometimes like to load up this jazzy Reason 1.0 tune as a humble reminder that skill always wins out in the end. Proof that even that primitive program could produce a really good quality mix using only its internal instruments and effects.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... _Found.mp3