FAW Circle - EULA

[ChiTown24]

Just to make things clear, the point about being "ignored" relates to a lack of communication from them for a support case, since 21st October. The last contact I received from them actually stated:

See how it goes and I will get back to you asap if you need more support.

Best regards,
Gavin.

I did indeed reply, and received nothing since in any channel - via email, this thread (which Gavin posted to on 1st November, but no response to me), PM on KVR (sent 1st November, still unread) and the tweet last Friday. This is what I mean by being ignored.

I won't go on, just read the thread through and make your own decisions. If FAW are a developer you're happy to support after reading it, then go happily support them, and I hope you have a better support experience with them than myself and others in the thread have reported.

NMG

Well, the purpose of your thread seems to morph between EULA wording, and customer support grievances, and activation issues... all kind of dove-tailing into one unified moan. It started off from the bat leaning on the side of antagonistic rather than leaving much room for diplomacy. The moaning is something I feel you're certainly entitled to do, but my sympathy is reserved for people who are more pro-active about solving their problems in the mean time - which by doing so doesn't preclude their right to moan, btw. Jump through the hoops, moan about having to jump through the hoops. Don't sit in front of the hoops and moan about the solution of your problem not coming quick enough AND the hoops you're not willing to even try jumping through. But that's just my opinion.

You feel ignored. But are you uninformed ? it seems to me you've been told both directly in this thread {page two, Gavin: "Activation on Windows 7 has been a problem but there is a fix, which we always try to walk our customers through via support email. We will be addressing this in the Windows 64bit update.} And at some point by email, though they didn't keep replying to your emails when you still found yourself unactivated. You're pretty uncertain about how many activations you've used by the way, you said "3 or 6 ?"...

I'm not sure what more you want, they've told you directly there's a fix coming, they've said it on their social media accounts, they're hitting that deadline albiet a slow one {osx was always due first with windows to follow}, the results on the osx beta are already mostly positive from what I can see on their active facebook page. I mean, is replying to your emails going to give you any more information than you already have ? is it going to fix the problem for you any sooner ? are you the only person with activation problems ?

it's poor communication, sure, but perhaps from Gav's POV how much more informed can he possibly make someone who's already pretty antagonistic. It's not going to fix the app any sooner.

you should just weigh up the pros and cons, and sell the license, or accept the pace of development and the less than personalized and mostly one-way communication situation.

[mcnelson]

Well, the purpose of your thread seems to morph between EULA wording, and customer support grievances, and activation issues... all kind of dove-tailing into one unified moan.

The whole point about the EULA is to that it establishes your relationship with the developer; so what do you do when the dev is unresponsive? What are your rights? What are the devs obligations to you as a customer, regardless of what makes business sense?

Jump through the hoops, moan about having to jump through the hoops. Don't sit in front of the hoops and moan about the solution of your problem not coming quick enough AND the hoops you're not willing to even try jumping through. But that's just my opinion.

Sitting in front of the hoops? So numerous emails, this thread, PM, Twitter...because I haven't joined facebook or telephoned them, I'm sitting in front of hoops? Seriously?

You feel ignored. But are you uninformed ? it seems to me you've been told both directly in this thread {page two, Gavin: "Activation on Windows 7 has been a problem but there is a fix, which we always try to walk our customers through via support email.

Yeah, that got me far.

...We will be addressing this in the Windows 64bit update

Of which there is no ETA. Check the last Circle thread - they stated they were working on 64 bit back in 2011:

@5Lives
On 64bit support, it is a high priority at the moment and something we are working on and have to release as soon as possible. We don't have an exact date yet though of when it will be released.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=57

You're pretty uncertain about how many activations you've used by the way, you said "3 or 6 ?"...

Between 3 and 6. I don't write down how many times I've activated Circle, my apologies. You're supposed to be able to activate on three computers - I've done so on one, and tried on a second. FAW "don't have a problem adding more activation slots", according to Gavin.

I mean, is replying to your emails going to give you any more information than you already have ? is it going to fix the problem for you any sooner ? are you the only person with activation problems ?

Yes, a reply would be nice. It's common courtesy, rather than blankly ignoring someone. It's not going to fix anything sooner, and I'm clearly not the only person with activation problems - but it isn't just about activation. It's about a dev being wilfully unresponsive. You can't argue that, if you've read the thread through.

it's poor communication, sure, but perhaps from Gav's POV how much more informed can he possibly make someone who's already pretty antagonistic. It's not going to fix the app any sooner.

And rightfully antagonistic, given the circumstances. This could have been fixed with a simple email, weeks ago...but that's too much to expect, right?

you should just weigh up the pros and cons, and sell the license, or accept the pace of development and the less than personalized and mostly one-way communication situation.

THANK YOU. This is my point exactly - expect this level of service from FAW. Don't be disappointed when you need support and none is forthcoming.

[ChiTown24]

Well, the purpose of your thread seems to morph between EULA wording, and customer support grievances, and activation issues... all kind of dove-tailing into one unified moan.

The whole point about the EULA is to that it establishes your relationship with the developer; so what do you do when the dev is unresponsive? What are your rights? What are the devs obligations to you as a customer, regardless of what makes business sense?

Sure, not denying the importance of the EULA... just that this thread seems to have various purposes and priorities that kind of morph to and fro. Gav responded to your EULA queries. Presumably, because your problem still isn't fixed - and they've stopped replying personally to your emails {though you are no worse off, or no less informed as a result} - his assurances about the EULA aren't satisfactory. So, is the EULA a standard EULA, or is it not a standard EULA because they don't reply to your every email ?

Jump through the hoops, moan about having to jump through the hoops. Don't sit in front of the hoops and moan about the solution of your problem not coming quick enough AND the hoops you're not willing to even try jumping through. But that's just my opinion.

Sitting in front of the hoops? So numerous emails, this thread, PM, Twitter...because I haven't joined facebook or telephoned them, I'm sitting in front of hoops? Seriously?

You had to be cajoled into creating a twitter account, you were quite happy to ignore the suggestion for at least 2.5 weeks after I made the social media suggestion and despite FAW themselves making the same suggestion, meanwhile during that 2.5 weeks you were still counting the days you were being 'ignored'. I'd call that sitting in front of the hoops. Besides, Facebook is the better way to prove if you are actively being ignored or not. That's one 5-minutes-of-pseudonyms-and-keystrokes hoop you're still refusing to jump through. In fact, you weren't even prepared to VISIT the page for information much less register an account in order to post a message. Though you're quite happy to spend oodles more time here on KVR, beating a dead horse.

You feel ignored. But are you uninformed ? it seems to me you've been told both directly in this thread {page two, Gavin: "Activation on Windows 7 has been a problem but there is a fix, which we always try to walk our customers through via support email.

Yeah, that got me far.

So is it about a fix, or being 'ignored' ? The fix is on the way, the proof of their activity is on their facebook page, the current osx beta, and the people posting positive results - on issues of activation {your problem} amongst other comparatively minor fixes. The fix isn't going to come any faster by repeatedly replying to your emails to offer the same response, is it ?

...We will be addressing this in the Windows 64bit update

Of which there is no ETA. Check the last Circle thread - they stated they were working on 64 bit back in 2011:

@5Lives
On 64bit support, it is a high priority at the moment and something we are working on and have to release as soon as possible. We don't have an exact date yet though of when it will be released.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=57

Reminds me of soundtoys 64 bit timeframe, and various other devs who took a considerable amount of time to 64bit-ize their apps. Such statements are/were not a definitive promise that the 64 bit update is right around the corner. Are you trying to conflate the issue of 64 bit and your activation problem ? your problem dates back a couple months, not a couple of years. The next bugfix update just so happens to be the update that 64bit will be implemented. The current osx beta came when they said it would, when they were precise about when it would come, and I have no reason to believe the windows update won't come in a comparative time frame.

You're pretty uncertain about how many activations you've used by the way, you said "3 or 6 ?"...

Between 3 and 6. I don't write down how many times I've activated Circle, my apologies. You're supposed to be able to activate on three computers - I've done so on one, and tried on a second. FAW "don't have a problem adding more activation slots", according to Gavin.

No need for the phoney apologies. You've got an activation issue, you may have used an activation 6 times successfully. I've used software for many years and still only activated once. I'm just saying it's noteworthy that you may have used a lot, and you're not sure. Maybe you've used more than 6. It's not a smoking gun. just food for thought.
They haven't said your activations have been denied by excessive use, they've acknowledged it's a problem with the app. I just find it a curious fact to gloss over on your part.

I mean, is replying to your emails going to give you any more information than you already have ? is it going to fix the problem for you any sooner ? are you the only person with activation problems ?

Yes, a reply would be nice. It's common courtesy, rather than blankly ignoring someone. It's not going to fix anything sooner, and I'm clearly not the only person with activation problems - but it isn't just about activation. It's about a dev being wilfully unresponsive. You can't argue that, if you've read the thread through.

How many replies is enough, to say the same thing and after you've been guided to visit their social media pages for further updates re: your issue. sure, complain the fix isn't fast enough for your taste. but the 'ignoring' aspect of your griping is stretching the facts imo.

it's poor communication, sure, but perhaps from Gav's POV how much more informed can he possibly make someone who's already pretty antagonistic. It's not going to fix the app any sooner.

And rightfully antagonistic, given the circumstances. This could have been fixed with a simple email, weeks ago...but that's too much to expect, right?

how could it have been 'fixed' by an email ? the actual issue that prevents you from enjoying the software, or your wounded ego ?
because the issue could not have been fixed by an email, as far as I can see. the issue will be fixed in the next update. something you seem to have been informed about umpteen times since this thread started.

you can be antagonistic if you like, but there's a certain finality to that approach. you could have moaned to your hearts content, and still left an opportunity for diplomacy. instead you painted yourself as impossible to satisfy, given they obviously can't fix the issue any faster. the only other thing they could satisfy was your desire for reply after reply, despite the futility of such an action and the distraction it would cause. perhaps you were fishing for deadlines they couldn't possibly meet ? i'm sure that would delight you too.

you should just weigh up the pros and cons, and sell the license, or accept the pace of development and the less than personalized and mostly one-way communication situation.

THANK YOU. This is my point exactly - expect this level of service from FAW. Don't be disappointed when you need support and none is forthcoming.

the service is: a slower pace of development or bugfixing, and from what we can see in this thread, if you keep asking the same question over and over they may stop replying to you eventually - though you will be no less informed as a result, and no worse off... the fix comes when it comes. Weigh up the price of the synth VS the functions it offers, and how likely you feel you'll find yourself in the same scenario as mcnelson. demo first. and take note of the people who haven't had such problems.


Honestly, I think you've driven this thread into a dead end. had you been more diplomatic I'd say it would be justifiable to leave it open, as it stands I think it's lock-worthy.

[mcnelson]

As I stated earlier, said all I need to say, let people make up their own minds. Lock away.

[samsam]

As I stated earlier, said all I need to say, let people make up their own minds. Lock away.

OP- thanks for the thread, I found it informative and will draw my own conclusions.

And "I can see Carly now Lorraine has gone" ranks as one of the best song titles I've heard in a long while

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ChiTown24]

As I stated earlier, said all I need to say, let people make up their own minds. Lock away.

Just to clarify something, i have been under the impression all this time that you've run OUT of activations and need a reset, not that you're affected by the current mavericks activation bug. correct? If so, one single email would have indeed fixed it a month back.

jesus wept.

I have absolutely no idea how you could be under that impression. He's not getting activated, because there's a bug that causes problems with the activation process. there are some workarounds. the workarounds are not working for mcnelson. the bugfix is promised in the next windows update - as Gavin stated on page two of this thread. The windows update is coming after the OSX update - which is currently in beta. From what I can see, OSX users who were also suffering from activation issues - including activation issues caused by Mavericks - are now posting messages along the lines of "great success!". The activation {OSX} problems seems to be solved in the current beta.

how is it you manage to stick your oar into these discussions, while at the same time having absolutely no clue about what is going on ?

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ChiTown24]

Gavin said they walk customers through it via email, has he tried to do that with you at all?

you must be soft in the head, or trolling by deliberately trying to rake up old muck. this has been covered in the thread.. mcnelson's last post stated "As I stated earlier, said all I need to say, let people make up their own minds. Lock away."

You somehow managed to contribute into this discussion at various points when these facts were being discussed, but now somehow you've forgotten, and need to be refreshed again. Instead of just re-reading the thread. to be honest you shouldn't have been commenting in the first place if you didn't have a grasp of what was being said.

but to answer your moronic question, yes, he provided the workaround. it didn't work for mcnelson. the next solution is a bug fix, which is incoming. any other dumb questions ? do you still know what synth we're talking about ?

[mcnelson]

I've been asked to clear up any confusion this thread may have caused.

There is no "activation bug" on Windows. The activation issue on Windows referred to earlier in the thread are to do with Windows UAC; this is not a bug, and anyone who has activated Circle on Windows will no doubt be aware of the offline activation method. Gavin acknowledges this in the thread, but it is NOT A BUG. The recent activation issues are on OSX Mavericks, caused by a change in the way the OS reports the MAC address to the software, or something like that (if you read the thread through you will note this is the crux of the Circle activation mechanism - the network hardware MAC address).

My frustration is purely with the dev being unresponsive and not responding to requests for assistance with activation when I had carried out their instructions to the letter and was still unable to activate - again, not because of a bug but probably due to a lack of activation slots - I can't confirm this as FAW went quiet on me. They said they would render assistance and didn't, prompting the whole purpose of this thread - what rights do we have as consumers, afforded by the software EULA, when the dev is unresponsive?

I apologise if anyone misinterpreted this and confused my activation issues with the recent OSX activation issues - they are completely unrelated. If you don't believe me, make your own enquiries with FAW via any channel you wish.

I have now disposed of my Circle license as I have no wish to use the software anymore, I am *that* disappointed with FAW.

I hope you all have a better experience with FAW than I did.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ChiTown24]

I've been asked to clear up any confusion this thread may have caused.

There is no "activation bug" on Windows. The activation issue on Windows referred to earlier in the thread are to do with Windows UAC; this is not a bug, and anyone who has activated Circle on Windows will no doubt be aware of the offline activation method. Gavin acknowledges this in the thread, but it is NOT A BUG.

Semantics. You're only insisting it's not a bug to muddy the waters. When this thread was temporarily locked, you started PMing me. At that point claiming that your issue was that you "simply ran out of auths", definitively. And that there is no activation bug on windows.

to which I replied:

there's an activation bug on windows, Gav confirmed it on page two {as well as the fact it's going to be fixed in the upcoming update} and you yourself noted several times how the auth process on windows is a 'clusterfuck'

as for you now claiming it's simply the fact you've exceeded your auth limit, well then you only have yourself to blame for any misunderstandings. I don't buy it anyway. the user 'ew' recounted his experiences of having run out of auths before, and you said you 'probably' needed more auths too.

Now you're trying to tell me that you simply, and 'certainly' need more auths ? should have said that in the thread before you ran it into the ground.

The recent activation issues are on OSX Mavericks, caused by a change in the way the OS reports the MAC address to the software, or something like that (if you read the thread through you will note this is the crux of the Circle activation mechanism - the network hardware MAC address).

there are indeed also activation issues with OSX Mavericks. That's been noted in the thread several times.

My frustration is purely with the dev being unresponsive and not responding to requests for assistance with activation when I had carried out their instructions to the letter and was still unable to activate - again, not because of a bug but probably due to a lack of activation slots - I can't confirm this as FAW went quiet on me. They said they would render assistance and didn't, prompting the whole purpose of this thread - what rights do we have as consumers, afforded by the software EULA, when the dev is unresponsive?

Given the nature of the PMs you sent me, I can totally empathise with FAW and have first hand experience of how & why your email correspondence might have broken down.

It's amazing that now, after all this time, the genesis of your grievance is about running out of auths. Despite the fact you never mentioned that to begin with, could only muster a 'i probably ran out of auths too' at one point when someone mentioned their own experience with auth limitations. and then never mentioned it again for page after page of moaning, until I commented on how you yourself were not even aware of how many auths you used. Your story is constantly changing.

I apologise if anyone misinterpreted this and confused my activation issues with the recent OSX activation issues - they are completely unrelated. If you don't believe me, make your own enquiries with FAW via any channel you wish.

You're right to apologise. I'll give you kudos for that. The issues are of course not identical, but they are both buggy behaviour relating to activation. The windows activation bug has existed for longer, with a workaround you yourself described as a 'cluster f**k', and the fix for that exact windows activation bug is incoming as stated by Gav@FAW from page 2. Things that are operating as expected don't get fixed. Bugs get fixed. The OSX Mavericks activation bug is more recent, and has already been fixed in the current OSX beta. This info has been stated several times in the thread. It would be difficult for most people to confuse these two issues.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ChiTown24]

cool story Theo,
the main thrust of my interest in this thread is that FAW are not entirely misrepresented. So, I'm not really too pushed about offering you a point by point reply. Kudos on the new posting policy though. Cheers.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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