Korg Minilogue

[whyterabbyt]

8 x 8 tracks for a Mellotron inspired module.

Y'see you sell the module cheap, and then bend them over for the cartridges.

Yeah, well Im figuring to use 5" vinyl discs running at 64rpm, so got that one covered.

[lfm]

What is there as oscillator - DCO/VCO and wavetable, or?

Your point would be that wavetable based synths can never be analog - even with analog signal path?
Are they VA?

There is DCO/VCO, wavetable/digital waveform and DSP generated.

On a VA the whole signal is digital (i.e. hardware running software).

Wavetable/digital waveform and DSP generated can at most be hybrid (see my earlier post on examples of hybrids) if it has analog filter and amp.

Example: Waldorf Wave/Microwave 1 is hybrid because it has analog filters and amplifiers. Waldorf Microwave 2/XT is digital/VA because everything is DSP generated (there are no analog filters or amplifiers).

Thanks for input, at least I know how to read posts on the matter.

To me though, it seems like nitpicking if an oscillator is created by samples fed to a D/A - and whether wavetable, dsp or DCO generates those samples. It's all digital and could not be called analog synth.

If filter and amp is analog once a signal is generated - it would go as hybrid as clock being digitally generated.

If filter and amp are digital it would be digital synth.

All would be VA, as at least one crucial part is digital.

With VCO as well then analog synth and not VA.

Just my preference that makes sense to me.

Either way, intrigued by what Minilogue might bring....in a week or so we know.

[whyterabbyt]

To me though, it seems like nitpicking if an oscillator is created by samples fed to a D/A - and whether wavetable, dsp or DCO generates those samples. It's all digital and could not be called analog synth.

If filter and amp is analog once a signal is generated - it would go as hybrid as clock being digitally generated.

If filter and amp are digital it would be digital synth.

All would be VA, as at least one crucial part is digital..

so, are you saying that something with a (non-modelling!) oscillator, which is doing something exclusively digital eg wavetables, followed by a real analogue filter and real analogue amplifier, is a virtual analogue?

[lfm]

To me though, it seems like nitpicking if an oscillator is created by samples fed to a D/A - and whether wavetable, dsp or DCO generates those samples. It's all digital and could not be called analog synth.

If filter and amp is analog once a signal is generated - it would go as hybrid as clock being digitally generated.

If filter and amp are digital it would be digital synth.

All would be VA, as at least one crucial part is digital..

so, are you saying that something with a (non-modelling!) oscillator, which is doing something exclusively digital eg wavetables, followed by a real analogue filter and real analogue amplifier, is a virtual analogue?

I guess that is so by me - anything digital in OSC/FILTER/AMP - it would hurt to say analog about it. I want justice for analog - it's been so abused over many years.

VA - serves as term for both digital and hybrid - again in my book. One essential part is digital.

Maybe I am unfair, don't know.

But if they made a synth with analog filter and amp envelopes, controlled by digital D/A and that can store presets - it's rated higher of course. Hybrid is not a bad cursed word or anything - neither is VA.

I have some guitar amps that are all tube, and one put a solid state amp for mixing preamp and spring reverb before power amp - I cannot call the latter all tube amp anymore, can I.

[whyterabbyt]

VA - serves as term for both digital and hybrid - again in my book. One essential part is digital.

Maybe I am unfair, don't know.

It just seems odd to me that you'd use 'virtual analogue' for something which is a combination of real analog and not-doing-anything-virtual digital.

Not that I give a toss myself, the splitting hairs over that crap or the DCO vs VCO silly is kinda pointless at the end of the day; the only place you find any attempt to adhere to a sane taxonomy is academic research papers, and everone else is dogmatically inconsistent as hell.

It sure wouldnt go down well at Muffwiggler, though, given that 80% of euro format modulars configured after 2004 probably have digital oscillators of some type.

[EvilDragon]

VA has nothing to do with "hybrid".

[zerocrossing]

Seems they had a good day creating specs for that - seems physical knobs for almost everything. Just like Nord Lead has. My KingKorg is really fun to work with, but still too many parameters hidden in menues.

If you don't have one, get an iPad. Even an old cheap one will do and load up Patch Morpher onto it with the KingKORG add on. Makes the KingKORG super fun to work with.

Thanks, I got KK because it was pretty good on knobs after all, tired of mouse clicking making presets - just not quite as good as NL in user friendlyness. But some Shift buttonpushes gets you in the menu range you need to be in KK. Also find KK shine in number of filters, combination of oscillators and effects section.

Modulation routing options to find unusuall sounds and make timbre velocity sensitive - is excellent in both. KK in the sources and destinations for modulation . And NL shines in the way every knob can be made velocity sensitive by just turning it with Assign active - every knob on the panel if 27 of them. These are the parts that make every preset an instrument by itself - expressive and interesting sound.

Will be interesting to see what Minilogue provide in this sense.


KK could do with a firmware update - and they could make the categories buttons work like in Blofeld - so when push a category button over and over, or step next/previous in category - actually find any preset assigned that category, not just the next by number.

But there is a solution to get KK categories right, you can in sysex dump change some bytes where each category start, so you have room for each as you find useful - and save them in those positions. This setting where each category start could also be in firmware update as I see it.

Since Prophet 6 can sell at $3000 or so, this would be fabulous at $500 if rumour is true.
My first synth a CZ1000 had four voices - and never felt that was major loss at the time.
The VA versions of Prophet(8,12 etc) are half price of 6.

The Prophet 08 and 12 aren't VA. The 8 is DCO based analog (though it's envelopes are generated digitally) and the 12 is a hybrid digital osc/osc effects and analog filter architecture.

OK, trying to learn exactly what most mean by VA.
So one part of essential parts like VCA, VCF or VCO exist - it's not a VA?
But all DCA, DCF and DCO - it's VA.

For me it's been more like if one DCA, DCF or DCO - it's VA.

Those are indeed good ideas for the KingKORG though you can kind of do that by touching controls to some degree.

I don't think most share your definition of VA. Many don't even consider a DCO in a synth to make it hybrid. I'm not going to argue semantics but when I think of "Virtual Analog" I think it's pure code based synthesis running on either DSP (Access, Creamware/Scope) or "native" code running on a generic Intel processor like Diva.

[lfm]

VA - serves as term for both digital and hybrid - again in my book. One essential part is digital.

Maybe I am unfair, don't know.

It just seems odd to me that you'd use 'virtual analogue' for something which is a combination of real analog and not-doing-anything-virtual digital.

So the oscillator is sounding different depending on origin, Isn't it, so not doing anything virtual digital is not really true. Even calling it an oscillator is virtual digital in you have digital origin and emulate analog oscillator brought into analog domain.

They charge quite a bit for VCO and what they do, being complex and temperature sensitive and all. Probably takes some waveforms before stabilizing. I played some with Nord Lead modulation envelope targeting oscillator 2 to get a tiny delay for pitch in there, helps a little bit making it alive. And have this thread about Analog Feel that some Roland synths have - creating a little wobble to it all.

So it takes some effort in digital domain to accomplish what VCO do, and still is not the full story.

So call it doing nothing virtual digital - I cannot agree on that.

[whyterabbyt]

So the oscillator is sounding different depending on origin, Isn't it, so not doing anything virtual digital is not really true.

Im not actually sure what you're saying.

Virtual analogue is not in any way analogue, correct? And analogue isnt digital.

And digital that is not attempting in any way to copy/duplicate/model/represent an analogue process has no basis for being called analogue, even as an adjective.

So I dont get what you're saying.

And logically 'VA is not A' is not the same thing as 'not A is VA'.

Even calling it an oscillator is virtual digital in you have digital origin and emulate analog oscillator brought into analog domain.

Well, just because an oscillator is digital, that doesnt mean its doing anything in common with analogue, so one would have to ask, how does 'not doing analogue even slightly' become 'virtual analogue'?
Digital wavetable oscillators arent doing anything based on any analog circuit behaviour, for example.
So Im not sure how, for example, a digital wavetable oscillator through an analogue VCF and an analogue VCA constitute a 'virtual analogue'. That definition basically makes the Emulator a virtual analog!


So like I say, i dont get what you mean, sorry. To my mind 'virtual analogue' correlates with 'analogue behaviour copied/duplicated/modelled/represented in a non-real (ie entirely virtual, ie entirely digital) manner'.

[lfm]

I don't think most share your definition of VA. Many don't even consider a DCO in a synth to make it hybrid. I'm not going to argue semantics but when I think of "Virtual Analog" I think it's pure code based synthesis running on either DSP (Access, Creamware/Scope) or "native" code running on a generic Intel processor like Diva.

If you emulate filter and an amp digitally it's not so much to argue about, probably, for anybody.

But excluding oscillator origin and emulating an analog oscillator is not virtual analog?
I'm chewing, and chewing, and chewing - and just don't get the reflex to swallow.

But I get it, most disagree with my convention, some will say I'm wrong.

I haven't had the pleasure of listening to a P6 and P8 - and can say if difference is obvious or not.

Would general public say listening to P6:
- this is something different, what shall we call it?
- 100% analog?
- nah, we already got that

Should we leave some headroom for those that make the effort creating true analog. Why have fake analog and true analog. We have hybrid, why not use that.

We didn't have true analog for so many years, unless going for the vintage stuff - so terminology deteriorated - that's my view.

[toine6]

If I play my guitar through a digital modeling amplifier and convert it to digital audio in my computer it becomes virtual analog? No, it's a real guitar, it's real analog, but it's been converted to digital. DCO's are kind of like that. It's no longer fully analog, but it started that way. V/A is pretty much an emulation using coded software. Like Virtual Reality. You may take a real human and add a bunch of digital video fx to the image, it turns different than reality, but it didn't start out in a virtual world.

virtual - not physically existing as such but made by software to appear to do so.

DCO's... are real oscillators... Not virtual. They have been converted to digital, and lose the full analog properties, but it's not an emulated oscillator to begin with, it's a real oscillator that quickly goes digital.

[eXode]

I don't think most share your definition of VA. Many don't even consider a DCO in a synth to make it hybrid. I'm not going to argue semantics but when I think of "Virtual Analog" I think it's pure code based synthesis running on either DSP (Access, Creamware/Scope) or "native" code running on a generic Intel processor like Diva.

If you emulate filter and an amp digitally it's not so much to argue about, probably, for anybody.

But excluding oscillator origin and emulating an analog oscillator is not virtual analog?
I'm chewing, and chewing, and chewing - and just don't get the reflex to swallow.

But I get it, most disagree with my convention, some will say I'm wrong.

I haven't had the pleasure of listening to a P6 and P8 - and can say if difference is obvious or not.

Would general public say listening to P6:
- this is something different, what shall we call it?
- 100% analog?
- nah, we already got that

Should we leave some headroom for those that make the effort creating true analog. Why have fake analog and true analog. We have hybrid, why not use that.

We didn't have true analog for so many years, unless going for the vintage stuff - so terminology deteriorated - that's my view.

I don't know where you've gotten this fake or true analog, but here's the low down:

There's analog, and there's hybrid, and there's digital/VA.

• DCO and VCO are both variants of analog.
• Digital oscillator/wavetable/sample with analog filter and amplifier is hybrid.
• Complete digital signal path is digital/VA (Access Virus/Nord Lead).

This is the common consensus and nomenclature used by the majority. If someone states something different, then that is deviation from the general consensus on proper nomenclature. Period.

[lalo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally ... oscillator

[stillshaded]

VA= dsp

It's simple. Can we move on? The term was invented in the mid to late 90s for nord lead, virus, jp-8000 etc.

[lalo]

VA= dsp

It's simple. Can we move on? The term was invented in the mid to late 90s for nord lead, virus, jp-8000 etc.