Kingston Drums released

[Markleford]

Personally, if I find the time, I may finetune a few of the sets (at least the EXS ones) to suit my needs a bit better.

I think that's the bottom line for everyone: no one set of programming is going to satisfy everybody!

If personal tweaking is what it takes, then so be it. The drums do sound awfully sweet in the demos, so that's proof that at least one person (namely Kingston) can get *great* results from them.

I think it's valuable to have a range of programming sets for each format, anyway. Since the samples come in a non-monolithic format, anyone should feel free to make their programs available: downloading the sampler patch (without samples) will be quick and clean.

Speaking of which, I'm sure we'll see several sfz mappings pop up very soon...

- m

[Sascha Franck]

Could it be that you still didn't get the way this kit is meant to be played?

I highly doubt that.

What I wanted to demonstrate is that it's COMPLETELY impossible to get a kicksound at LOW volume out of it, no matter how hard you hit whatever key.

As a result of this, you just won't be able to do ANY sort of dynamic kick recording/programming.
Maybe this is what the "kit is meant to sound" like, but I've never heard undynamic realistic drums.

Let me ask you this: How would you program a kick with some low volume hits every now and then, using your very velo mapping and sampler velo settings?

[Kingston]

Forgot to mention, if it isn't clear already.

The velocity response in the kits come from the velocity switching of the samples. I admit that there probably isn't enough of them in some cases though.

Definetely enough to me though. The demos should prove that.

Maybe I should've put it somewhere more clearly, that these kits were designed to be my personal tool, to suit only my own taste. That in mind, any kind of comparisons or arguments pretty much null themselves...

[Spe3D]

Personally, if I find the time, I may finetune a few of the sets (at least the EXS ones) to suit my needs a bit better.

I think that's the bottom line for everyone: no one set of programming is going to satisfy everybody!

If personal tweaking is what it takes, then so be it. The drums do sound awfully sweet in the demos, so that's proof that at least one person (namely Kingston) can get *great* results from them.

I think it's valuable to have a range of programming sets for each format, anyway. Since the samples come in a non-monolithic format, anyone should feel free to make their programs available: downloading the sampler patch (without samples) will be quick and clean.

Speaking of which, I'm sure we'll see several sfz mappings pop up very soon...

- m

Exactly correct, I can’t wait to see what programming maps pop-up – I personally am creating a range of FL Layers for use with FL Studio and once people have the samples all they will need is the FLP files to map to – I will also do a variation for RM4 (I think others are already making some too)

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone, and especially to Kingston himself.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Kingston]

I highly doubt that.

What I wanted to demonstrate is that it's COMPLETELY impossible to get a kicksound at LOW volume out of it, no matter how hard you hit whatever key.

Well, you did get it wrong there, as far as I understood it now.

If you want low velocity from the kit, you hit C1 really low, if you hit it harder, the kick sounds harder, too. Then if you want even harder, you hit C#1 really low, and if you want even harder you hit C#1 harder etc.

Trust me, the lowest recorded kick (c1 vel 1) is the drummer hitting the kick really low (jazz touch). The highest volume kick is the drummer hitting it extremely hard. There are like 10-20 samples in the between (I can't remember how many exactly).

This is also how "undynamic" this peticular kick drum happens to be in the real world.

[Kingston]

I have to say I'm enjoying this feedback as I have an opportunity to explain some of the why's and how's and other reasons of doing it differently.

[Kriminal]

Also, some of the samples aren't cut well enough, they're just too lush - pretty much noticeable on the kick samples which have an "offset" of over 10 ms, "kick8.wav" even comes up with around 20ms. The same is true for some of the snares.

Yeah, no excuse for this. The editing must be right on the button. I noticed some of the Kavala hits are like that, and it f**ks up the timing/rendering something wicked.

If ya samples arent spot on, most ppl wont be arsed to spend time editing themselves. Gotta be tight to be right

[Kingston]

Also, some of the samples aren't cut well enough, they're just too lush - pretty much noticeable on the kick samples which have an "offset" of over 10 ms, "kick8.wav" even comes up with around 20ms. The same is true for some of the snares.

Yeah, no excuse for this. The editing must be right on the button. I noticed some of the Kavala hits are like that, and it f**ks up the timing/rendering something wicked.

If ya samples arent spot on, most ppl wont be arsed to spend time editing themselves. Gotta be tight to be right

I come from a different school of thought. I thought I explained the offset thing already. Sorry it won't work with you.

I did some tests long time a go about this, and the air simply has to stay there. Compressors with very fast attack would react "wrong" if the air was cut. The difference was subtle, but too much for me.

Besides, it's the same with a real drummer. He has to compensate for the pedal movement. It's not immediate, like when you hit the keyboard. Admittedly, the keys will not give you the same physical resistance as a real kick drum pedal.

[Kriminal]

Also, some of the samples aren't cut well enough, they're just too lush - pretty much noticeable on the kick samples which have an "offset" of over 10 ms, "kick8.wav" even comes up with around 20ms. The same is true for some of the snares.

Yeah, no excuse for this. The editing must be right on the button. I noticed some of the Kavala hits are like that, and it f**ks up the timing/rendering something wicked.

If ya samples arent spot on, most ppl wont be arsed to spend time editing themselves. Gotta be tight to be right

I come from a different school of thought. I thought I explained the offset thing already. Sorry it won't work with you.

Dont get me wrong, the samples are good quality soundwise, but an offset, or any compensation is not necessary. Can you explain why, cos to me it looks like lazy editing.

Also, having to hit 2 diff notes to get diff velocities is very strange, the multi samples should all be assigned to one note and triggered according to the velocity the key is hit, no? Thats how most multi vel layers work anyway.

Keep up the good work tho, and very cool to see other ppl giving away free stuff (even if they do get grief for it )

Dave

[Markleford]

If ya samples arent spot on, most ppl wont be arsed to spend time editing themselves. Gotta be tight to be right

Of course, if they're tight to begin with, you no longer have the ability to choose. Didn't the previous NS Kit have an extra set of "fast" kick samples with the attacks trimmed off?

At any rate, it's easy to specify a sample offset in sfz, so I can have it either way. Rock on.

- m

[Kingston]

Kriminal,

read some of the above posts from me (some edited). It's all explained there.

the multi samples should all be assigned to one note and triggered according to the velocity the key is hit, no? Thats how most multi vel layers work anyway

What do you mean should? Who defines this? I think I made my point about how much I despise GM already...

[Sascha Franck]

Trust me, the lowest recorded kick (c1 vel 1) is the drummer hitting the kick really low (jazz touch). The highest volume kick is the drummer hitting it extremely hard. There are like 10-20 samples in the between (I can't remember how many exactly).

?!?!?
So, how comes there's NO way to have a LOW volume kick sound?
You're even saying "jazz touch"... this is weird, honestly!
Using the default setting, there's NO way to get any kick sound being much lower than 0db on my meters.
I never heard a jazz drummer allways banging his kicks that loud.

Allright, here's another small example:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/sambalike.mp3
Are you just saying that this would allready be too much dynamic in the kick?
Anything even halfway similar to this (from a dynamic viewing point only of course) is completely impossible to achieve using your drumkit and the default settings.

[Kingston]

Trust me, the lowest recorded kick (c1 vel 1) is the drummer hitting the kick really low (jazz touch). The highest volume kick is the drummer hitting it extremely hard. There are like 10-20 samples in the between (I can't remember how many exactly).

?!?!?
So, how comes there's NO way to have a LOW volume kick sound?
You're even saying "jazz touch"... this is weird, honestly!
Using the default setting, there's NO way to get any kick sound being much lower than 0db on my meters.
I never heard a jazz drummer allways banging his kicks that loud.

Allright, here's another small example:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/sambalike.mp3
Are you just saying that this would allready be too much dynamic in the kick?
Anything even halfway similar to this (from a dynamic viewing point only of course) is completely impossible to achieve using your drumkit and the default settings.

Seriously, and no offence, I have no clue what you are on about..

I can do that sound anytime with the kits. Are you *sure* you are not doing something wrong? Some odd master setting I don't know about?

The microphone used in it probably compressed it slightly, too. We used a combination of beta52 (big one) and rode NTV.

Also, I think there's a warning about gentle playing styles in there somewhere, too. I wouldn't even bother trying. Would you try playing a Steve Vai solo with a Gibson acoustic for example?

[Sascha Franck]

I can do that sound anytime with the kits. Are you *sure* you are not doing something wrong? Some odd master setting I don't know about?

My settings are all plain, nothing else (everything at 0dB, no plugins).
Send me an appropriate MIDI file and I'll drag it into Logic, on a set of your choice.

What I am talking about is, that there's no way to get a low level kicksound, because a) there's no individual sample being low enough and b) the output-to-velocity response in the EXS UI is set to allways put out the full volume.
Minor exception: The C1 kicks in fact are a bit lower in volume, C#1 is as well - but that's about it. And it's still a way too high level for some soft ghost notes. And even using those different kicks doesn't offer too much dynamics for the kick, namely three dynamic stages, C1, C#1, D1.

In addition, there's some unbalanced things going on. In some kits (example: Kick Wopod and Snare Wood) the middle velocity zone (43 to 85 in that case) of C1 sounds subjectively louder than the lowest velocity zone (0 to 42). So, you hit harder and the sound get's subjectively lower in volume - that's quite some contradiction.
I could post another MP3 but it seems I should just shut up as you don't seem to get what I'm on about - in the end it's your kit and while I was only planning to point out some shortcomings (which most if not all people will think to be such I guess), even along with some explanations WHY these are shortcomings, it's simply becoming too time consuming.
After all, the samples might be useful, they are indeed good sounding.

[Kingston]

In some kits (example: Kick Wopod and Snare Wood) the middle velocity zone (43 to 85 in that case) of C1 sounds subjectively louder than the lowest velocity zone (0 to 42). So, you hit harder and the sound get's subjectively lower in volume - that's quite some contradiction.

Did I mention about the *recorded* volume differences already? I think I did, about three times. I could be that perceived volume is lower, but the transient is louder, can't remember exactly. This might be because the drummer hit the snare at a slightly different spot. These kind of things happen all the time with real drummers. Maybe it's time you read the manual...

Maybe I should put up a disclaimer or something.

"Kingston Drums: first drum samples in the world you will need a manual for"