Calling All Guitar Players - Real Guitar VS Vir 2

[JonSolo]

I like the Vir2 collection. And possibly for the money you get a variety of guitars. But you mentioned that one of the things that turned you off from Orangetree was the strummer. I don't think Vir2 will be your friend there either.

MusicLab has that part down even with the lackluster (in my opinion) sounds. I really wish they provided that part separately so we could build a great guitar from multiple libraries.

[wagtunes]

I like the Vir2 collection. And possibly for the money you get a variety of guitars. But you mentioned that one of the things that turned you off from Orangetree was the strummer. I don't think Vir2 will be your friend there either.

MusicLab has that part down even with the lackluster (in my opinion) sounds. I really wish they provided that part separately so we could build a great guitar from multiple libraries.

Then essentially I'm screwed no matter what option I use.

Wonderful.

I'll just wait for MODO Guitar or whatever 1K comes up with.

[Apostate]

Interesting topic. I use Shreddage with Guitar Rig, plus for harmonies Ministry of Rock 2 (some terrific guitars there).

[BERFAB]

I also like the Kontakt sets. Pettinhouse and Orange Tree are both superb, and great value. I'll add that IKM's Sampletank American Guitar set is also an excellent sounding acoustic--very easy to use articulations, etc.

Orange Tree currently has all its electric guitar sets on sale for $699-- strats, a ricky and even a sitar are in there.

And for $89, OT has something that I think is very unique--a slide acoustic. Excellent value, and a sound that I've never heard replicated in any virtual instrument.

Regarding the VIR2 package with 14 guitars: While I'm sure this represents quite a lot of bang for the buck, I'm always fascinated by the discussion of the differences in "tone" that is apparently evident in the raw samples. 99% of the usage for these instruments will have extensive FX processing. And a high percentage of those will have such heavy processing added as to render the source samples unrecognizable. In fact, for many of the lead guitar settings, quite often the same sound can be achieved with just a sine wave and a good FX package.

I know my guitar aficionado friends here and elsewhere may strongly disagree with this, but such is life. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers
-B

[wagtunes]

I also like the Kontakt sets. Pettinhouse and Orange Tree are both superb, and great value. I'll add that IKM's Sampletank American Guitar set is also an excellent sounding acoustic--very easy to use articulations, etc.

Orange Tree currently has all its electric guitar sets on sale for $699-- strats, a ricky and even a sitar are in there.

And for $89, OT has something that I think is very unique--a slide acoustic. Excellent value, and a sound that I've never heard replicated in any virtual instrument.

Regarding the VIR2 package with 14 guitars: While I'm sure this represents quite a lot of bang for the buck, I'm always fascinated by the discussion of the differences in "tone" that is apparently evident in the raw samples. 99% of the usage for these instruments will have extensive FX processing. And a high percentage of those will have such heavy processing added as to render the source samples unrecognizable. In fact, for many of the lead guitar settings, quite often the same sound can be achieved with just a sine wave and a good FX package.

I know my guitar aficionado friends here and elsewhere may strongly disagree with this, but such is life. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers
-B

Vir2 actually has unprocessed samples as well called DI. So no, not everything is processed unless you want it to be. There are clean samples.

[jsp1979]

He didn't say that Vir2 doesn't have clean samples.

[JonSolo]

I don't think you are screwed per se. I think we sometimes look at bundles and then look at the money and think "ok that seems to be a bargain".

To semi-quote something you throw out there all the time, "What do you REALLY feel that you're missing in your arsenal?"

Let's see...good strums. Strummed Acoustic 2 $99. Great acoustic strumming, great easy price.
Good electric leads. Evolution Stratosphere $179. Huge variety of presets, great RR engine. Want it a bit thicker? Evolution Strawberry for the same price and options.
Need some picking options? Evolution Steel Strings for $179.

Even if you get all of the above, you come in cheaper than the Vir2 package, with newer samples, newer updated engines, and at least with Orangetree you get constant updates and reworks to fit the latest Kontakt engines.

I have both Strummed libraries and almost all of the Orangetree stuff and am MORE than covered. There is no envy looking at the Vir2 stuff...nor have I ever been pulled to wanting it.

[wagtunes]

I don't think you are screwed per se. I think we sometimes look at bundles and then look at the money and think "ok that seems to be a bargain".

To semi-quote something you throw out there all the time, "What do you REALLY feel that you're missing in your arsenal?"

Let's see...good strums. Strummed Acoustic 2 $99. Great acoustic strumming, great easy price.
Good electric leads. Evolution Stratosphere $179. Huge variety of presets, great RR engine. Want it a bit thicker? Evolution Strawberry for the same price and options.
Need some picking options? Evolution Steel Strings for $179.

Even if you get all of the above, you come in cheaper than the Vir2 package, with newer samples, newer updated engines, and at least with Orangetree you get constant updates and reworks to fit the latest Kontakt engines.

I have both Strummed libraries and almost all of the Orangetree stuff and am MORE than covered. There is no envy looking at the Vir2 stuff...nor have I ever been pulled to wanting it.

Okay, this is fine, but it seems that for strummed electric guitars there is no decent option.

Also, I have the Strum Acoustic 1, which isn't bad. Are you saying 2 is that much better?

[JonSolo]

No Strummed Acoustic 2 is not THAT much better. It has many more variations. It is a different sound. SA1 is bright and a little more sterile sounding. SA2 has a darker overall tone to both the 12 string and the old Martin. They work great in tandem.

As for strummed electric...how much do you really do that? I mean there is SOME strumming but I have never heard an electric strum that I could not at least loosely copy enough to fake it as necessary. Especially with the extra up and down stroke keyswitches in Orangetree...namely play a chord with your right hand, and then with your left hitting one note duplicates it as a down stroke on the strings and another note duplicates it backwards as an upstroke.

You talk as if programming is not an issue...so put some time into working on the strumming section of Orangetree.

One thing I know Vir2 offers is a bit more extra keyswitches than Orangetree, but nothing I really have found extremely useful for what I do.

[wagtunes]

No Strummed Acoustic 2 is not THAT much better. It has many more variations. It is a different sound. SA1 is bright and a little more sterile sounding. SA2 has a darker overall tone to both the 12 string and the old Martin. They work great in tandem.

As for strummed electric...how much do you really do that? I mean there is SOME strumming but I have never heard an electric strum that I could not at least loosely copy enough to fake it as necessary. Especially with the extra up and down stroke keyswitches in Orangetree...namely play a chord with your right hand, and then with your left hitting one note duplicates it as a down stroke on the strings and another note duplicates it backwards as an upstroke.

You talk as if programming is not an issue...so put some time into working on the strumming section of Orangetree.

One thing I know Vir2 offers is a bit more extra keyswitches than Orangetree, but nothing I really have found extremely useful for what I do.

I just want to make sure I'm following you.

For an acoustic strum, you're saying the only good one is AAS.

For an electric strum, or playing chords (electric guitars do play chords) you're saying it doesn't matter. It's all programming.

In that case, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, there is really no difference then between Vir2 and the other libraries you mentioned, correct? Or is one better than another?

If not, then going for the one that provides the most guitars for the money appears to be the logical way to go, especially now that I only have to get Vir 2 electric which saves me $250.

What am I missing?

[JonSolo]

I think maybe you are over simplifying my comments. And maybe you misunderstand me. I am not talking about AAS. I am talking Native Instruments Strummed Acoustic. It is a sample strummed instrument. In other words you have a pre-recording of a real guitarist playing. I like the way it sounds and it works. I have the one that came with Komplete Ultimate 11 and I have Strummed Acoustic 2.

I would also never say that it is the ONLY good one. Context is everything. If you are strictly writing guitar music, you might do better to get a guitarist to come in and play the parts for you. Assuming that is NOT an option then I get your desire for higher quality, but then it becomes highly subjective.

I have found that Native Instruments Strummed 1 & 2 together now cover all of my acoustic strumming needs. Orangetree covers most everything else.

Of course this is about you and not about what works good with my abilities or work flow. You seem sold on Vir2 so go for it. To me it feels a bit long in the tooth, but no question that there are some quality things still to be found within it.

[wagtunes]

I think maybe you are over simplifying my comments. And maybe you misunderstand me. I am not talking about AAS. I am talking Native Instruments Strummed Acoustic. It is a sample strummed instrument. In other words you have a pre-recording of a real guitarist playing. I like the way it sounds and it works. I have the one that came with Komplete Ultimate 11 and I have Strummed Acoustic 2.

I would also never say that it is the ONLY good one. Context is everything. If you are strictly writing guitar music, you might do better to get a guitarist to come in and play the parts for you. Assuming that is NOT an option then I get your desire for higher quality, but then it becomes highly subjective.

I have found that Native Instruments Strummed 1 & 2 together now cover all of my acoustic strumming needs. Orangetree covers most everything else.

Of course this is about you and not about what works good with my abilities or work flow. You seem sold on Vir2 so go for it. To me it feels a bit long in the tooth, but no question that there are some quality things still to be found within it.

Ah okay, I didn't know NI had a strummed acoustic. It didn't come with Komplete 9 (at least not that I'm aware of) so I've never had a chance to use it. I haven't upgraded to K11 because I didn't feel it gave me enough to justify it.

Let me see what it would cost to add this to Kontakt on its own.

[wagtunes]

I think maybe you are over simplifying my comments. And maybe you misunderstand me. I am not talking about AAS. I am talking Native Instruments Strummed Acoustic. It is a sample strummed instrument. In other words you have a pre-recording of a real guitarist playing. I like the way it sounds and it works. I have the one that came with Komplete Ultimate 11 and I have Strummed Acoustic 2.

I would also never say that it is the ONLY good one. Context is everything. If you are strictly writing guitar music, you might do better to get a guitarist to come in and play the parts for you. Assuming that is NOT an option then I get your desire for higher quality, but then it becomes highly subjective.

I have found that Native Instruments Strummed 1 & 2 together now cover all of my acoustic strumming needs. Orangetree covers most everything else.

Of course this is about you and not about what works good with my abilities or work flow. You seem sold on Vir2 so go for it. To me it feels a bit long in the tooth, but no question that there are some quality things still to be found within it.

Okay, I checked out the NI Strummed 2 completely outside of actually downloading it myself.

I'll make this short.

The audio demos sound great. Very realistic. Then I watched the tutorial which is a good 9 minutes long. And as he's going through each part, I'm saying to myself, this doesn't sound like the demos. It just doesn't sound as good.

Then at the very end of the tutorial, he played back a piece that was about a minute long, if that. It sounded fantastic.

Of course it did.

I counted the keyswitches at the bottom of the piano roll.

33 different keyswitches.

We're talking about a 1 minute piece.

So yeah, with massive amounts of programming, you can make this thing sound damn good.

Well, guess what? With massive amounts of programming you can make Vir2 Acou6tic sound just as good.

Point is, there is no "out of the box" simple solution. With either product, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. Because just playing this thing without some serious programming, it sounds very mechanical.

I will say this. I do love all the different strum patterns that you can mix and match together to give it a more realistic feel. I'm not sure how extensive the Vir 2 library is in that regard.

Also, if you listen to the Vir 2 demos, you will note that they concentrate more on finger picking than strumming. So strumming may not be its strongest point. That said, it appears that NI Strum isn't meant for lead playing at all, or at least doesn't excel at it. So either way, I'm going to have to get both libraries, which is what I'd like to avoid if possible. That just doesn't look like it's a realistic expectation.

So I'm still kind of left in the same boat that I started this trip down the river in, in the first place. I have no idea what to do. There are things I like and don't like about each product I've listened to so far.

I have found no perfect solution.

[jacqueslacouth]

misread original post....sorry

[wagtunes]

misread original post....sorry

No need to be sorry. If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears. I haven't made any decisions yet.