Does FLStudio have PDC?

[tony tony chopper]

Umm.. well, the original Cubase VST, Samplitude, Logic Audio, Cakewalk v4< , Digital Orchestrator+ (anyone remeber that? ), various trackers, etc. You just specify the range and hit 'render to disk'. This is what you meant, right?

Oh and surely all those things had (when they still existed) PDC, right?
Just don't use plugins that introduce a delay and you'll render loops perfectly.

I guess this 'feature' already is on the 'to do' list

It's not, because it's not the big problem you pretend it to be (because those plugins are rare).
We're even doing a loop CD/FL combo and no PDC isn't a problem at all. We don't bundle any plugin that introduce latency, except a few samples for the fruity compressor, and it's not noticable in rendered loops.

[bmanic]

frankly, I am happy with FL as is, and would hate to see another layer of complexity added because one user wants delay compensation. Besides that, if FL is the *only* software in history to not have it, use it as a Vst/Dxi/rewire device into a app that does support it and add your effect there...

I don't think you (or anybody else ?!) really understood what I meant. Has there been a large scale confusion caused by my poor written english?

Compensating for the plugins that are inserted in the MASTER CHANNEL where all other channels are routed (including sends) should be very trivial but very important for accurate loop rendering. It involves NOTHING of the user and just minimal coding (just a guess from my side as I don't know a lot about programming) so it really doesn't change anything for the worse.

Sigh, once more.. the issue is this:
FL studio does not compensate the latency for ANY plugins inserted in the master channel, not even during rendering!

Cheers!
bManic

[tony tony chopper]

FL studio does not compensate the latency for ANY plugins

but what do you mean by 'ANY plugins'?

isn't it clear that, let's say 99% of plugins don't introduce any delay? That those that do are usually
-impulse reverbs (I don't think anything can be done about them, though)
-compressors, but there are lots of compressors with minimal look aheads, like the fruity compressor. A compressor surely doesn't need a big look ahead time.

[bmanic]

Umm.. well, the original Cubase VST, Samplitude, Logic Audio, Cakewalk v4< , Digital Orchestrator+ (anyone remeber that? ), various trackers, etc. You just specify the range and hit 'render to disk'. This is what you meant, right?

Oh and surely all those things had (when they still existed) PDC, right?
Just don't use plugins that introduce a delay and you'll render loops perfectly.

Jep, they did, on all audio channels during rendering(not group nor aux). It's in the VST spec, isn't it?

I guess this 'feature' already is on the 'to do' list

It's not, because it's not the big problem you pretend it to be (because those plugins are rare).
We're even doing a loop CD/FL combo and no PDC isn't a problem at all. We don't bundle any plugin that introduce latency, except a few samples for the fruity compressor, and it's not noticable in rendered loops.

This is sad news for me. I constantly use a mastering limiter (Voxengo Elephant) that has a latency of 23ms. The problem I have is that the render engine of FL studio makes 23ms of silence at the start and leaves OUT ( ) 23ms of the end. You call that proper loop rendering?
Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click. I'd really like you to fix this issue if at all possible. Pretty please?

Cheers!
bManic

EDIT, Just to specify: When rendering in fruity you get a box giving you the option to Cut reminder, leave reminder and wrap reminder. When using Cut reminder it cuts the reminder of the audio at exactly the end of the loop but because of latency introduced by the plugin, your loop is shifted that same amount forward but still CUT at the 'real length' of the loop. I really can't explain it better but trust me, it really is a problem for people that use FL studio for loop making.

[pitchdrifter]

[Rik]

Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click.

That's pretty serious...

[bmanic]

Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click.

That's pretty serious...

No shit.. Finally somebody that gets it.

Cheers!
bManic

[tony tony chopper]

Jep, they did, on all audio channels during rendering(not group nor aux). It's in the VST spec, isn't it?

uh? cakewalk wasn't supporting VST's, and which trackers do/did (I only know 1 supporting VST's)?

Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click.

61 samples? that's nothing. And with or without them, your loop can click. FL doesn't post-process your loops to prevent that, and even a simple reverb/delay can introduce clicks in your loop. Only way to prevent this would be a post-crossfade, and I do plan this as a future feature.

[Robert Randolph]

Jep, they did, on all audio channels during rendering(not group nor aux). It's in the VST spec, isn't it?

uh? cakewalk wasn't supporting VST's, and which trackers do/did (I only know 1 supporting VST's)?

Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click.

61 samples? that's nothing. And with or without them, your loop can click. FL doesn't post-process your loops to prevent that, and even a simple reverb/delay can introduce clicks in your loop. Only way to prevent this would be a post-crossfade, and I do plan this as a future feature.

How would anyone ever guess that reply was coming?

not too hard heh

[tony tony chopper]

How would anyone ever guess that reply was coming?

not too hard heh

don't know what it means, but thanks for bringing those very important and interesting arguments

[Robert Randolph]

How would anyone ever guess that reply was coming?

not too hard heh

don't know what it means, but thanks for bringing those very important and interesting arguments

Just a common theme in this thread...

paying users of your software express a valid need, and give very good technical, and artistic reasons for it...

and almighty gol dismisses it with great ease.

Any other time I would not think a fight for PDC is so important, but when rendering loops or full mixes, it should be quite obvious the necessity. The VST spec fully supports the information necassary for you to at least compensate when rendering. I can understand routing problems, all solvable but lots of work, but simple rendering...

[spaceman]

I'm just trying to decide who's word I should take on this matter.. the developer who developed one of the most successful audio apps of the moment, or the people who don't.

it's a tough choice, I'll have to think about this one

[topaz]

The Spice Girls are one of the most successful UK music exports.

success doesn't exactly mean it's great does it.

I'm just trying to decide who's word I should take on this matter.. the developer who developed one of the most successful audio apps of the moment, or the people who don't.

it's a tough choice, I'll have to think about this one

[nuffink]

How would anyone ever guess that reply was coming?

not too hard heh

don't know what it means, but thanks for bringing those very important and interesting arguments

Just a common theme in this thread...

paying users of your software express a valid need, and give very good technical, and artistic reasons for it...

and almighty gol dismisses it with great ease.

Any other time I would not think a fight for PDC is so important, but when rendering loops or full mixes, it should be quite obvious the necessity. The VST spec fully supports the information necassary for you to at least compensate when rendering. I can understand routing problems, all solvable but lots of work, but simple rendering...

Is this an official response from lastfuka libs, or are you freelancing bobby?

[bmanic]

Jep, they did, on all audio channels during rendering(not group nor aux). It's in the VST spec, isn't it?

uh? cakewalk wasn't supporting VST's, and which trackers do/did (I only know 1 supporting VST's)?

Just read my original post where I answered you about other softwares looping capabilities (that was your original question to my first post,no?). I even added there that not all had vst capabilities just to clarify.

Even with your own Fruity Compressor you get 61 samples of silence and 61 samples left out of the end of the loop which can very easily make a noticeable click.

61 samples? that's nothing. And with or without them, your loop can click. FL doesn't post-process your loops to prevent that, and even a simple reverb/delay can introduce clicks in your loop. Only way to prevent this would be a post-crossfade, and I do plan this as a future feature.

You seriously think that leaving OUT 61 samples of the loops end and shifting the beginning with 61 samples of silence is not a problem? I'm NOT interested in the crossfade as I always make my loops so that they do not click when they loop properly but because of fruity's rendering it doesn't loop properly if I insert a simple thing as a compressor! I can't understand how this is so friggin hard to understand.

I'm just trying to decide who's word I should take on this matter.. the developer who developed one of the most successful audio apps of the moment, or the people who don't.

it's a tough choice, I'll have to think about this one

Success has nothing to do with anything. George Bush was very successfull becoming the american president and even has a good shot in the coming election but that still doesn't make him smart or good at it, at all (IMHO).
Just go away spaceman... visit the moon or something.

Gol: FYI I notified you about this issue about 3 (?) years ago during the time you introduced the plugins first time into fruityloops (yes people, fruity has not had plugin support from the start ). I've even mentioned it a couple of times after that but alas.. you simply fail completely to understand the need for it and I seem to be the only one thinking this issue is quite serious (well, tedious mainly) so I'll just give up now, Ok? I still like FL Studio and have to live with it's limitations.. that's all. Steinbug ain't listening to customers either so why should I expect you to? I still think it's a very serious issue and one that is extremely easy (or should be) to fix. There, I'm out of here as this is getting really silly.

Cheers!
bManic

(EDIT: IMHO added to that Bush analogy so that I don't get slain by folks like Mirabebe (maybe rightly so before the imho).