SONAR 4 Surround....

[LoRez]

It sounds like they added all the features I was missing most from Cubase. Track folders, freeze, clip mute, loop record. I'm impressed. This is more than I thought they'd be able to accomplish in this release.

The one thing I've come to absolutely rely upon in Live 4 is clip envelopes though. I won't go back to a host without them. I can't tell for sure from the announcement but it doesn't sound like Sonar 4 has these.

The continuing lack of native VST support is a little disappointing too.

Sonar does have clip envelopes and has had them for some time. The idea of "native" vst support is a myth in a DX application. Cubase wraps DX plugins (like Waves)...it is really no big deal. The wrapper allows CW to update 3rd party plugin support without having to update the entire app. There is no app with "native" DX support and "native" VST support to the best of my knowledge. And wrapping the VST plugs in Sonar means they get to take advantage of Sonar's 64-bit double precision automation.

[LoRez]

Sonar has had Clip Envelopes. Unless I misunderstand what you mean? Plus, they've added clip-mute, etc.

By clip envelopes I mean Live-style automation envelopes that attach to the clip and move with it. Sonar 3 didn't have these. In fact, Sonar 3's automation was one of the things that led me to stop using it. Sounds like S4 has some interesting new stuff in that department.

But Sonar DOES have clip automation in v.3. You can add a track envelope (doesn't move with clips) or you can add clip envelopes...that DO move with the clips. I find Sonar's automation to be quite slick.

[LoRez]

Hum. Nothing really new :\

Improved engine performance tho.


Seems like all the big hosts are equal now. What a surprise.

Ah....nevermind...

[LoRez]

I for one, think its a great release.

A definite 'catch-up' version, grabbing bits and pieces from what the other competitors did well .

Yeah, in some respects. Not necessarily a bad thing though... see how the other guys did it and maybe avoid their mistakes.

Like with freeze.

I'm very impressed... it's almost like a "this is how SX2 should have done it" release.

Although now with SX3 due out possibly at the end of next week, it will be interesting to see what that will have to offer.

Yes, the freeze looks awesome...and very flexible.

[LoRez]

Good stuff! But there goes my BFD budget! Again!

Beg, steal (money that is...not software), or borrow man...BFD rocks. If you need the sort of thing BFD does, then there is nothing better IMO.

Now...back to S4

[LoRez]

I was hoping for full vst-support

Could you please explain what you're missing about the current vst-support?

The vst wrapper is still flaky in some circumstances.

VST plugins are still flaky in some circumstances. Period. For the most part, I've had no more problems running vst's under the CW Adapter than running them "natively" in other applications. I'm sure YMMV, but I don't see the "wrapper" as being a problem at all...in fact I'd call it a red herring. But, of course, this subject has been discussed ad nauseum (I'm as much to blame as anyone)

[LoRez]

jens wrote:
3mph wrote:

I was hoping for full vst-support


Could you please explain what you're missing about the current vst-support?


The vst wrapper is still flaky in some circumstances.

Though I haven't found the adapter flaky in quite some time as far as compatibility with VST plug-ins, Sonar not including built in VST support means that VST effects that can sync to tempo will not work unless configured as a DXi (not a big deal) if at all (a very big deal, as plug-ins like the Kjaerhus Audio modulation effects still do not sync). Also we're missing midi output support for VST/VSTi plug-ins (which I was hoping against hope would be in this release). Anyway aside from this I'm quite impressed with this upgrade and will be kicking my Sonar 2.2XL up a few notches. Don't need the surround stuff (which appears to be one of the biggest things), but the group editing will certainly come in handy as well as the Pow-R dither and Sonar 3PE's bussing as well as the other new features. Can't see how some people don't think this is a big update though...I'm familiar enough with Sonar 3PE from using it on friend's systems to know this is quite the big update.

This are good points about the Sonar VST effect implementation and I concur. However, I think that by making the "Adapter" a part of the equation, we may not have to wait until Sonar5 for this to improve. CW can just update the VST adapter and it may fix things in ALL of their apps simultaneously. Just my thoughts...I could be wrong about the simplicity though

[LoRez]

Anyone gonna join me here on Page7 before I use it all up?

[kuniklo]

Sonar does have clip envelopes and has had them for some time. The idea of "native" vst support is a myth in a DX application. Cubase wraps DX plugins (like Waves)...it is really no big deal. The wrapper allows CW to update 3rd party plugin support without having to update the entire app. There is no app with "native" DX support and "native" VST support to the best of my knowledge. And wrapping the VST plugs in Sonar means they get to take advantage of Sonar's 64-bit double precision automation.

Sonar does have clip-envelopes for gain & pan for audio and velocity for midi, but that's it. I'm talking about full vst parameter automation.

"Native" or not, Sonar's vst wrapper gave me problems with instruments I don't have in Live or Cubase. I got tired of rerunning the wrapper utility all the time too.

[kuniklo]

VST plugins are still flaky in some circumstances. Period. For the most part, I've had no more problems running vst's under the CW Adapter than running them "natively" in other applications. I'm sure YMMV, but I don't see the "wrapper" as being a problem at all...in fact I'd call it a red herring. But, of course, this subject has been discussed ad nauseum (I'm as much to blame as anyone)

Beside the point. VST plugins that work fine for me in other hosts cause problems in Sonar. I'm not making this up. Plenty of other people have reported similar issues. Cakewalk themselves just reversed their patch policy to issue a major VST adaptor fix.

[kuniklo]

I find Sonar's automation to be quite slick.

I find stacking three or four separate automation envelopes right on top of each other in the same track anything but slick. My word would be more like exasperating. I *much* prefer the way Cubase, Logic, and Live handle this.

[LoRez]

Sonar does have clip envelopes and has had them for some time. The idea of "native" vst support is a myth in a DX application. Cubase wraps DX plugins (like Waves)...it is really no big deal. The wrapper allows CW to update 3rd party plugin support without having to update the entire app. There is no app with "native" DX support and "native" VST support to the best of my knowledge. And wrapping the VST plugs in Sonar means they get to take advantage of Sonar's 64-bit double precision automation.

Sonar does have clip-envelopes for gain & pan for audio and velocity for midi, but that's it. I'm talking about full vst parameter automation.

"Native" or not, Sonar's vst wrapper gave me problems with instruments I don't have in Live or Cubase. I got tired of rerunning the wrapper utility all the time too.

So you'd rather scan for plugins everytime you start the application like "other" programs often do?

I agree with you about the clip automation for vst parameters however. Would be nice to have clip automation for more than just vol and pan. You CAN do track automation though and just copy or move it, but I realize this is a less elegant solution.

[LoRez]

VST plugins are still flaky in some circumstances. Period. For the most part, I've had no more problems running vst's under the CW Adapter than running them "natively" in other applications. I'm sure YMMV, but I don't see the "wrapper" as being a problem at all...in fact I'd call it a red herring. But, of course, this subject has been discussed ad nauseum (I'm as much to blame as anyone)

Beside the point. VST plugins that work fine for me in other hosts cause problems in Sonar. I'm not making this up. Plenty of other people have reported similar issues. Cakewalk themselves just reversed their patch policy to issue a major VST adaptor fix.

Care to expound on which plugins give you trouble?

[LoRez]

I find Sonar's automation to be quite slick.

I find stacking three or four separate automation envelopes right on top of each other in the same track anything but slick. My word would be more like exasperating. I *much* prefer the way Cubase, Logic, and Live handle this.

I can understand why you might want to separate these to additional "lanes" (ala Cubase) but I also like the ability to see the envelope superimposed onto the waveform. Both ways would be the ideal implementation. You know you can hide the envelopes so you dont' HAVE to keep stacking them on top of each other...

[Cheeso]

"TTS-1 multitimbral, multi-out GM2 synthesizer with authentic Roland® sounds"

Are the Roland sounds different from standard GM sounds? Is this different from the current Edirol VSC gm synth?