NI launching 'stand alone hardware' Maschine + (leak)

[machinesworking]

I find Cubase quite unreliable. e.g. I have some songs that work perfectly but others have an extra half-second latency for no apparent reason. It also crashes more than I am comfortable with. I've spent time with their tech support guys in Melbourne and we sorted a few things out but there are still a couple of showstoppers that mean I could never use it live.

Damn? 19 years ago I tried out Cubase 5 (their naming convention is bonkers, it dropped to SX 2, 3, 4 etc. after that), and Logic. A bug in DP that drove me nuts had me looking at other DAWs. I went with Logic mainly because Cubase was far less stable. That's been the #1 reason I haven't ever bothered to try it out since then. No one ever points out Cubase as stable, just doesn't happen. I haven't tried Studio One since the 1.0 version so I can't say. Seems like people tout it as stable though.

I still haven't made a decision between Bitwig and logic, I don't see using both on a regular basis, since they only support opposite plug in standards. it's a choice between a ridiculously full feature set in Logic with an annoying MIDI input paradigm, or the more cut down set of Bitwig.

Leaning towards Bitwig, since it's cross platform and although I don't think Apple will screw up the Arm transition, it's always possible, and I probably will never not use DP to some degree. Live performance wise I'm much more inclined towards DP than Bitwig or Logic, the whole concept of Chunks is perfect for live use, since songs load separately, but you can have instruments in a rack outside of songs etc. I feel like Logic is best if that's all you ever use, and it seems redundant to have two old school do everything DAWs you regularly work on, as apposed to one old and one new school "uninterrupted audio" DAW like Bitwig.

I don't see Logic as a live performance DAW, even MainStage seems too limited to me for that. Logic is too finicky with record arm selection and MIDI input, at least compared to DP and Bitwig.

Out of curiosity what was the straw that broke you of Bitwig? So far I'm really liking it. My only complaints are I think the GUI doesn't really lend itself to more than 24 tracks, but I rarely do that. I don't like that I can't see an overview of the bussing MIDI and Audio, but I was spoiled with DP that way.

[BONES]

I never really liked Bitwig. At first it seemed like it might be great but the more I got into it, the more it felt like it was made for someone else and I'd always be on the edge of where it was going. The latest version confirmed that for me so I am glad I got rid of it.

[DrGonzo]

I spend 8 or 9 hours a day in front of a computer, doing work that is quite similar to my hobbies, and I don't see any conflict or problem.

Yeah, people like you are blessed with not having that as a problem. Different people different issues I guess. I always find myself 1000 times more productive with a hardware device with 100 great samples rather than a computer with 10000 great instruments and sounds. For years I have been trying to learn to overcome that issue, I mean picking out 100 samples and just work on them with the computer is more or less the same. But I never manage to come close to the productivity compared with a standalone unit.

As much as I like the concept of the Maschine+ I feel damn double about it. The Mk3 controller is so damn well thought out that it's doesn't feel like you are working on a computer.

/C

[machinesworking]

I never really liked Bitwig. At first it seemed like it might be great but the more I got into it, the more it felt like it was made for someone else and I'd always be on the edge of where it was going. The latest version confirmed that for me so I am glad I got rid of it.

I hear you, I felt that way about Live when it got Max/MSP. It felt and still feels like to me they quickly soldered on Max, which never made any sense to me. They spent years defending their WYSIWYG UX, simplified 128 parameter limit on automation, lack of key commands and general dumbed down interface, then went ahead and grafted an object oriented programming language into it.

Coming from Live I like Bitwig, probably because it's like Live, but also more like Cubase, Studio One, DP, Logic etc. If you have no use or need for clips, Live and Bitwig won't have a lot of appeal, although some use them without clips.

[machinesworking]

I spend 8 or 9 hours a day in front of a computer, doing work that is quite similar to my hobbies, and I don't see any conflict or problem.

Yeah, people like you are blessed with not having that as a problem. Different people different issues I guess. I always find myself 1000 times more productive with a hardware device with 100 great samples rather than a computer with 10000 great instruments and sounds. For years I have been trying to learn to overcome that issue, I mean picking out 100 samples and just work on them with the computer is more or less the same. But I never manage to come close to the productivity compared with a standalone unit.

As much as I like the concept of the Maschine+ I feel damn double about it. The Mk3 controller is so damn well thought out that it's doesn't feel like you are working on a computer.

/C

For me personally, I started right away using computers for sequencing. Hated "hardware" sequencers when I tried them, I could never get why someone would want the limitations of hardware sequencers? I'm not selling Maschine right away though, I want to see if they actually made significant improvements to the Song window or not first.

[antic604]

I still haven't made a decision between Bitwig and logic, I don't see using both on a regular basis, since they only support opposite plug in standards. it's a choice between a ridiculously full feature set in Logic with an annoying MIDI input paradigm, or the more cut down set of Bitwig.

Why are you even hesitating? Judging by your posts elsewhere it's easy to limit yourself to just to set of features you need at the moment and get things done. Logic is the logical choice. Bitwig would be stupid.

/s

[machinesworking]

I still haven't made a decision between Bitwig and logic, I don't see using both on a regular basis, since they only support opposite plug in standards. it's a choice between a ridiculously full feature set in Logic with an annoying MIDI input paradigm, or the more cut down set of Bitwig.

Why are you even hesitating? Judging by your posts elsewhere it's easy to limit yourself to just to set of features you need at the moment and get things done. Logic is the logical choice. Bitwig would be stupid.

/s

I think not a person has understood a single thing I've said about the subject, but I'll try again.

First off the truth is Bitwig is far better at MPE than Logic. Logic only allows for 16 MIDI channels on input at a time. I have 5 MIDI controllers: Roli Seaboard Block, Linnstrument, MPK88, Beatstep Pro, and Push 2. In Logic any of the MPE controllers immediatly takes up all 16 channels. In Bitwig it's not an issue at all.

This list can bounce around a bit, Logic is future proof on OS X, they're already showing it running on their Apple Silicon etc. The AI drummers in Logic are pretty cool, and nothing compares virtual instrument wise. Then again Bitwigs sampler does granular. Push 2 works perfectly with Bitwig, iPads and Logic are gold.

I've always used more than one DAW, DP and Reason, then Logic and Reason, then Logic and Live, then Live and DP, until MPE started making it annoying to work in those DAWs. I absolutely enjoy a solid uninterrupted audio DAW like Bitwig and Live. Plus Logic is tedious in live use I found.

Honestly if DP fixed a few things ( MPE and Articulation/Expression maps, clips need more work ), I would probably just stick with it only. I freely admit my own shortcoming decision making wise is with DAWs, I like learning new ones, and I have a hard time accepting that the "perfect" one for me, just isn't out there. It's why I've always used two, to cover strengths and weaknesses the other has.

[BONES]

For me, having to use two hosts/sequencers is a right royal PITA and involves far more compromises than using any single application possibly could. I see my current situation of moving between Orion and Cubase as a temporary solution until a proper solution can be found. If Orion hadn't been discontinued and worked as well as it used to, it wouldn't worry me how many really cool features it was lacking or any of that other krap, because it is still miles ahead of anything else when it comes to getting stuff done.

I always find myself 1000 times more productive with a hardware device with 100 great samples rather than a computer with 10000 great instruments and sounds.

Here's this "samples" thing again. Honestly, I didn't think anyone worked like that any more. When I say "samples", I usually mean a snippet of dialogue we've "sampled" (stolen) from a movie or a TV show or maybe a drum hit. Usually the only audio tracks on one of our songs are the vocals and those voice snippets, everything else is an instrument/MIDI track. Samples aren't things I have actually used to write music since my hardware days and, even then, it was mostly multi-sampled instruments in my DSS-1 or ASR-10. So you have me intrigued, what are these "100 samples" you like to work with? Audio seems to be the dominant theme of Studio One tutorial videos, they mostly don't mention MIDI or the piano roll at all.

[antic604]

I think not a person has understood a single thing I've said about the subject, but I'll try again.

I understood you just fine. Was just having a laugh

[DrGonzo]

Samples aren't things I have actually used to write music since my hardware days and, even then, it was mostly multi-sampled instruments in my DSS-1 or ASR-10. So you have me intrigued, what are these "100 samples" you like to work with?

It's just a selection of 100 solid sounds. It doesn't have to be 100, but having 2000 kick drums is total disaster for my creativity. Just to make a simple example, and I'm using hardware as an example here. If I load up 100 samples in a Korg Volca Sample, ranging from a handful of kicks, hats, claps to melodic sounds such as bass, pads and synth sounds, I can easily produce kick-ass ideas within moments. If I use the same samples in something like Geist, or an Ableton Drumrack/Simpler - I never ever get close to the same feel, results or fluidity - and believe me, I have tried.

It doesn't have to be 100 static samples either. I get the same good results when working on the Digitakt with a bunch of selected samples + a synth connected to the inputs. Then the gates of creativity just opens up. Anything more complex than that results in zero productivity.

I've been an almost avid "hater" of Maschine from almost since it first was released. But the latest mk3 controller and software has a workflow that truly intrigues me. It's really fluid and streamlined with almost everything straight to the point.

/C

[antic604]

Audio seems to be the dominant theme of Studio One tutorial videos, they mostly don't mention MIDI or the piano roll at all.

I think this is because Presonus first and foremost tries to sway mixing and mastering engineers, who primarily work with audio, i.e. stems or recordings.

But S1 is pretty competent with MIDI. I like its pianoroll editior much more than Cubase's, where I always felt I'm somehow inserting the notes between the actual pitches on the grid and moving around it (with trackpad) was a disaster. Make sure you explore the right-click menus when clicking on a clip (Musical Functions, Instrument Part) as well as Actions and Macros in the piano roll itself. Perhaps it's not as full-featured as Cubase and Hans Zimmers of this world wouldn't be satisfied, but for my needs - and probably 90% of people - it's got everything and doesn't look like Access database

And I know you're a pro and a veteran, but check Gregor's tutorial because S1 does have few gotcha's that it's best to be aware of:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... y2IUIEVhlB

[BONES]

I like its pianoroll editior much more than Cubase's

They seem very similar to me and both are much, much worse than Orion. If I live to be 100, I will never get used to double-clicking to add a note and neither of them are smart enough to make a new note the same length as the previous one.

Make sure you explore the right-click menus when clicking on a clip (Musical Functions, Instrument Part) as well as Actions and Macros in the piano roll itself.

I'm a PC guy, I live on right-click menus. I've already noticed that some of the tools that are in Cubase's top bar are in right-click menus, which is very cool.

Perhaps it's not as full-featured as Cubase and Hans Zimmers of this world wouldn't be satisfied, but for my needs - and probably 90% of people - it's got everything and doesn't look like Access database

Yeah, I only need the basics but neither really do the basics well. I can live with them but I can't imagine I'll ever actually like either of them.

And I know you're a pro and a veteran, but check Gregor's tutorial because S1 does have few gotcha's that it's best to be aware of

So far I find his the most useful for sure.

[FapFilter]

have you tried Reaper?

[revvy]

This Cubase thread rocks!

[antic604]

...I will never get used to double-clicking to add a note and neither of them are smart enough to make a new note the same length as the previous one.

When you hold Ctrl, clicking will insert a note and hovering over a note will turn the coursor to Eraser to delete a note. Also clicking & holding the mouse will let you draw note of any length, but - indeed - it doesn't remember the length for subsequent notes (Bitwig does ).

Obviously instead of holding Ctrl you can switch to draw tool and keep it there - it's separate from arranger window (where it's best to have smart tool enabled [the "bracket" on the left]).