Cubase SX3 vs. Sonar 4

[ericj23]

so what your saying is 1 person is trying to sell a licence for a product - which is not transferable - and lets face it you cant go unregistered because you must register to get the bug - fixes. makes me wonder if leaving a few slightly damaged features makes business sense

and lots of people who can sell their liscences are

where's the joke ?

oh yeah its on those people who dived into cakewalk and then changed their mind

[Rabid]

Who pays that much for software without trying it first? If all other things are equale and the choice is between the ability to sell your license, or the ability to install on more than one computer without the headache of some stupid copy protection scheme, I'll choose the ability to install on more than one computer.

Robert

[ericj23]

hey im only arguing the point because someone suggested sonar was better 'cuase it was cheaper.
I'm merely pointing out the false economy

PS you can install cubase on as many computers as you want too - just dont forget your dongle

But either way - you pays your money - you make your choice

[HanafiH]

I always like to keep my fingers on a dongle.

Fabulous.

[Stupid American Pig]

I bet that the people who say that they dont have problems with cubase are making that up...

of course, you could just not purchase Sonar if you dislike it but I guess trolling is more fun...

Trolling? You managed to miss the subject of this thread.
And I'm not trolling, I spent the last couple days introducing someone who has been a long time sonar user who owns sonar 4 already to SX3, because of the issues I explained above. I'm currently using SX3, but I used a range of non steinberg hosts before that. Whatever does the job best at a given time.

Now if you sad 'my host is better than yours' f**kers (of either side) could get a life, and would start to actually work with either sequencer, it'd be such a relief for this forum. This bullshit is so unprofessional it makes you look like 14 year olds who think their trainers' brand owns the other guys' brand.
Grow up.

apparently you dont read my posts either....

[headquest]

hey im only arguing the point because someone suggested sonar was better 'cuase it was cheaper.
I'm merely pointing out the false economy

No its not because:

1) Sonar actually IS cheaper to buy new than Cubase SX

2) You can demo Sonar first to see if you like it, unlike Cubase, for which no demo is even available

3) Whatever the situation regarding license transfer, if you change you mind and decide to use a different sequencer in the future you can usually get good crossgrade deals which will reimburse you the cost of Sonar. Oooops - you forgot to mention that!

4) you still get to buy one of the fab applications I listed above in addition to Sonar - all for the same exorbitant price as a single copy of SX3.

And for the record:

1) I don;t use Sonar myself (but am certainly considering it as an upgrade from Tracktion, depending on what T2 offers and how much longer it takes)

2) I know LOTS of people who have left Cubase SX because it didn;t meet their needs (e.g. kept crashing)

3) I am one of those people myself - Cubase was a mess for me

[ericj23]

yes it is becuase

when you buy cubase and dont like it - you use it for a cheap crossgrasde to something else - then SELL cubase - notice the word with big letters

and as i posted a while back the constant selling if cubase in the background (for whatever reason) means cubase costs no more than sonar - shop around

got to work on your maths

[headquest]

got to work on your maths

Oh, and did I mention...

Now that's out the way:

Like I said, Cubase was a mightmare on my (laptop, P4, 512mb RAM, 2.8gHz) system.

Because:

1) Kept crashing system
2) Constantly worried about the bloody dongle whilst on the move
3) The worst customer service in history

I abandoned it - initially for Tracktion, which is very stable (unlike Cubase), although limited in some features. But fell in love with its "workflow" and came to the conclusion it is a Dream to teach to my students...

...now using Live 4 as my main program, as well as Adobe Audition (which has audio editing way ahead of any "sequencer" I know of).

Interested in Sonar, but as you can see I have moved away from using ONE do-it-all programme to using a variety of highly stable and acclaimed specialist programmes - Sibelius (notation), Live (loops and now MIDI), Audition (audio recording/editing/restoration/mastering), Reason (synths/samplers rack).

Glad Cubase works for you though eric, and respect where its due! Whatever my problems, Cubase remains one of the seminal programmes for computer based music production

[headquest]

mojkarma and the others!

Thanx for your comments! I have heard enough to decide, that Sonar isn't for me as I'm a heavy user in the midi department.
It looks like the grouping bug, which makes grouping of automation data and midi parts useless, will be solved in SX 3.01 in about a month. So this will make things better. I really miss the freezing functionality Sonar4 now has, so I will have to rely on bounce til Cubase catches up. (It's my fault as I really like the big CPU eating stuff like resynthesis, FFT fx, Reaktor stuff etc )

If you're going for Cubase, you'll be pleased to know that SX3 has been getting good press... including 10/10 in MTM.

Before you pays your dollars, mind, these are the (few) minus points to be aware of:

"Cons:
- some of the synchronisation features still need a little attention.
- large projects can still take a few minutes to load
- the general performance of the application can still suffer when working with large numbers of tracks"
Sound on Sound , nov 04

"Against:
- problems with mono-in/stereo-out external effects
- VST effects and instruments now rather dated
- Lots of bugs in MIDI Device Panel Editor"
Computer Music, nov 04

"Walk on by:
- needs a powerful machine
- a few minor bugs
- ideally requires two screens"
Music Tech Magazine, nov 04

Hope this helps.

For my part, while SX3 looks like a major improvement, the part about needing a powerful system and two screens rules out Cubase for laptop users.

Definitely now a studio-only application.

[Sascha Franck]

the part about needing a powerful system and two screens rules out Cubase for laptop users.

Definitely now a studio-only application.

Thing is, Steinberg just don't get their ergonomics right. Since ages that is.
While versions 1+2 (Atari) have been pretty slick programs, while 3.x was still rather effective when it came to using up screen estate, while 5.x even had some more or less significant improvements in that area - with SX they have somewhat reached the mark of Cubase being REALLY bad when being used on a single monitor system.
The track list along with inspector usually is allready using up 1/3 to 1/2 of my laptop screen. And there's all those freaking buttons too...

And, not to forget, that using it on two monitors isn't exactly a pleasant experience in case they're not of the same size/resolution - just because some most essential windows, such as editors, still can't be opened as floating windows. So you can't maximize it on one screen and just drag out some float windows onto your secondary monitor, which actually is THE most efficient way of using multiple monitors, regardless of size and/or resolution.

Being no Sonar user at all, I can't say what things are like with it, regarding the screen waste, all I can say is that it's close to being PERFECT with Logic - and it's totally beyond my understanding how other companies couldn't try to halfway adopt that way of handling things (as they do it with other features anyways).

You can have a look like what Logic looks like when being used in my 1 monitor setup:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/LogicSX/Logic1Mon.jpg
Pretty slick, all information I need is available too, LOADS of space for my MIDI/audio parts, the small audio mixer strip nicely following my arrange selection.

And here's some screenshot of my setup using 2 monitors, the secondary monitor only, screenset #1, displaying my audio mixer:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/LogicSX/Logic2ndMon.jpg
As you can see, there's 21 audio/vst strips displayed straight, a few busses and whatever below, with plenty of space left to add more.

Both screenshots made on 17" flats at 1280x1024.

Seriously, these are the things that usually annoy me the most. Windows overlapping my arrange, buttons cluttering up workspace when you may not need them at all while composing or so, etc etc.
Defenitely one of the reasons why all my personal work is still done in Logic, even if I have SX as well.

[headquest]

That looks good, Sascha, but I won't be getting a Mac (for other reasons).

I get the feeling from the Sonar 4 demo that it would work better on a laptop than Cubase (not hard, though!)

The screen is highly configurable, and can be made to look much like the Logic screenshot you posted.

Possibly too many windows though - I'm not sure how workflow would be, but there seem to be some very happy Sonar users around here.

We'll see what the reviews say, and wait to see what Tracktion 2 does

Also, as I'm getting very into Live4 - which is obviously ideal on a laptop - I may not even need another programme... with Audition also having a highly good multitrack and mixing page, my own workflow is evolving and Tracktion rarely gets a look on my system now. Time will tell!

[ericj23]

cubase works fine on one screen here - although it was nice when i had two going

defintely no need for two - get used to using the shortcuts for expanding tracks

and screen wise its little different to sonar, but not as compact as logic

[Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]]

I bet the people at the cakewalk forums who say they have to wait a couple senconds when they solo a track or make a new track are just making that up.

The actual issue had to do with turning on an effects send or creating a new effects send, not soloing a track. These will be fixed in an maintenance release due later this week.

[SJ_Digriz]

Heh, Sascha and I have discussed the interface thing for a couple of years. But I would like to point out some slightly incomplete discussion on it. Also, I run 2 monitors. Project window is at 2048x1024 and mixer is at 1600x1200. So, I'm not 100% sure what is being said about weird windowing. I have no such problem. My project window is on the left window and the mixer page is on the right. Also, when I pop up a plug or have an edit window pop-up, that interface is on the right monitor. Window sets work ok (if they actually were complete they would be awesome). So I have multiple looks in each monitor depending on if I am editing or mixing or whatever.

Project Window 1

I actually like this interface when working on the project page. And it is almost identical to the Logic interface in layout, but to me the Cubase look is better and easier on the eyes. Also, just about every button and interface can be configured as on or off/open closed (I'll show you in picture 2). And, selecting a track opens the correct interface on the left, just like Sascha said Logic does. Below is the identical project with the inspector strip turned off. So as far as the project page goes, I think Cubase wins. There is much much much more to this interface, just like there is in Logic however.

Project Window 2

Where Logic is great is the configurability of the environment pages. Although I don't like making them, and it's more complicated than it needs to be, I like the ability to lay out the channels in any way you want. Here is one of the layouts I have for the mixers. Audio/Midi up top, Groups/FX in the middle and Input/Output on the bottom. This is my standard mixing interface. Again the configurability for the channels themselves is awesome in Cubase, but you can't put the channels in the groups you want them in or have as many mixers open as you want. I forgot to put the skinny channel view in, but Sascha hates all the buttons. You can get rid of them and have a streamlined view. Or you can have a HUGE channel view with every option visible including inserts and sends.

Mixer page


I would go over Sonar which I own and have used extensively and Tracktion which I have demoed and hated, but I don't think either has the functionality of Logic or Cubase. I can't believe someone made fun of Cubase for bugs then says they use Live, that's funny stuff bud.

Sonar is a good application, but it is not in Cubase or Logic league yet. Although I will say that it has improved 1000% over the last 2 years and has some very cool features that probably make it attractive to certain type of song development.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

hey im only arguing the point because someone suggested sonar was better 'cuase it was cheaper.
I'm merely pointing out the false economy

Well, you can probably agree, then, that for a new user (taking the "upgraders" and "crossgraders" out of the equation) who is happy with the particular host of choice (whether it's Sonar or Cubase SX) and keeps it and continues to use it, Sonar is less expensive than Cubase SX.