Plugin Limit on Mac vs PC

[Sascha Franck]

people in this thread using their pc´s like what they have,

I actually don't. A) because I never seem to "like" any computers and b) well, you know why...

[jones-y]

If people said they used a Mac because it was what they were used to I would have no problem but when they try to convince us that there is any advantage to it, they are pushing shit up-hill.

So then, the logic is that there is no advantage to using a Mac. Which implies all advantages lie with using a PC.

That is a logical fallacy. If two things are "much of a muchness" there is no advantage to either. Refuting the claim that there is an advantage to one implies nothing about advantages of the other.

You're absolutely right. Of course, 'everyone' doesn't bow to logic.

But in a direct comparison of two widgets who's capabilities significantly overlap, is it not reasonable to compare them? If its not, then you must admit that in a direct comparison, saying one of them has no advantages, implies the other has all.

Is this a defensible position? Really?

Yours, or your straw man's?

Eg

BONES is a straw man?

egbert, I get the feeling you're just being contrary...

[egbert]

That is a logical fallacy. If two things are "much of a muchness" there is no advantage to either. Refuting the claim that there is an advantage to one implies nothing about advantages of the other.

You're absolutely right. Of course, 'everyone' doesn't bow to logic.

But in a direct comparison of two widgets who's capabilities significantly overlap, is it not reasonable to compare them? If its not, then you must admit that in a direct comparison, saying one of them has no advantages, implies the other has all.

I think it is very courageous of you to advance two completely contradictory assertions in two successive paragraphs.

Either I am absolutely right as you say in the first sentence and saying one has no advantages implies nothing about the inferiority of the other OR I am absolutely wrong and you have invented a whole new system of logic.

[jones-y]

Hey, I have trouble agreeing with myself, let alone you...

[says to self] Self, shut up, you're making a fool of us [/says to self]

Anyhow what I was getting at, is in the world of logic, your assertion (no pun intended) is correct.

However in a debate between two objects with similar functionality, I think the inference (sp?) of advantage in one is an inference of disadvantage in the other.

Hence the argument: PCs are cheaper. This is an obvious argument of an advantage of the PC platform. But it begs the question: Cheaper than what? Air? (BTW ever see Total Recall? wonder how long it'll be before somebody really puts it in a can). So in common usage (where everybody doesn't do logic) it is an obvious inference of a distinct disadvantage of Macs.

[egbert]

However in a debate between two objects with similar functionality, I think the inference (sp?) of advantage in one is an inference of disadvantage in the other.

That would be true but we were talking about the reverse - it was asserted that Bs had NO advantage over As - this does not imply that As have advantages over Bs - there might be no advantages on either side.

BTW - an inference is something that one makes - it is a conclusion one draws from evidence - it may not be correct. People talk about "strong" inferences when the evidence for a conclusion is convincing. I think the word implication is the one you are looking for above.

Hence the argument: PCs are cheaper. This is an obvious argument of an advantage of the PC platform. But it begs the question: Cheaper than what? Air? (BTW ever see Total Recall? wonder how long it'll be before somebody really puts it in a can). So in common usage (where everybody doesn't do logic) it is an obvious inference of a distinct disadvantage of Macs.

OK - you are bringing other facts into the discussion - pricing. You know how you want that Mac/PC debate to come out - if you paid more for your Mac it just has to have advantages or you will feel like a chump. But this is really a separate matter - if Macs and PCs are within your means, you can discuss advantages or the lack of them without discussing price.

I think people can accept that different cars have different price tags and that for personal reasons someone might like to buy something like a Citroen or a Renault which might cost more than a Honda Accord but a discussion of relative advantages needn't deal with price at all if both are within your means.

In the case of guitars there is a wide price range - you can buy a second hand clunker or spend everything a man might earn in his lifetime (esp as a musician) on just one guitar. When people evaluate guitars they do it on sound, playability and appearance and there is a lot of brand consciousness and a cult of certain classic instruments in there too.

I think that people can discuss whether one guitar is better than another without bringing price into it.

Eric Clapton - so the story goes - bought a whole rack of Strats for 100 bucks each about 30 odd years ago when they weren't so fashionable. He mixed and matched the necks and bodies and ended up with "Blackie" his favorite working guitar for a long while which was auctioned for a large sum recently.

I think you could discuss whether "blackie" had advantages over "brownie" (:-^) or not and the price is immaterial - and anyway who can say - is Blackie worth $100 or $200K?

Regards,
Eg

[jones-y]

That would be true but we were talking about the reverse - it was asserted that Bs had NO advantage over As - this does not imply that As have advantages over Bs - there might be no advantages on either side.

I see now, it wasn't an implication of disadvantage, but rather an implication of lack of advantage. However it is still a slightly subjective argument, and a pretty thin line betwixt the two. Therefore, in my mind, it fits more so in the realm of opinion than fact. I can live with that, if it is made clear that it is, at least partially, an opinion.

You know how you want that Mac/PC debate to come out - if you paid more for your Mac it just has to have advantages or you will feel like a chump.

Is that what you infer (BTW, thanks for the correction, I love a person that can debate civilly! did I use it right this time?) from my previous posts in this thread? You know, at one time (in the not too distant past) I would've wanted to justify, or even win. But I'm past it now.

If you read back through my posts, you'll see that I'm not necessarily trying to 'win' this debate or justify my purchase, to myself or others. As a matter of fact, I admitted in a previous post that my decision to buy a mac was pretty much uninformed. However, the important thing is overall, I am happy with my purchase, and I see advantages in the platform. I probably would've also been happy with a PC purchase, except for the at-that-time impending Logic debacle (another uninformed purchase I've been pleased with, but if it had been cubase.... i'd probably be happy with it).

But I just really get sick of comments like "all mac users are dumb rich acne-ridden kids and middle-aged zealots" and "there's absolutely no advantage to buying a Mac." You know yourself that the latter comment can be neither proven nor disproved, until you remove subjectivity. And the former isn't even worth rebuttal.

I paid $1749 for my mac in 2001. I've gotten more than my money's worth out of it since then. If I had bought a PC, the price would've been comparable, since I'd have probably bought a OTS system, being inexperienced, at the time in component spec'ing and PC assembly/troubleshooting. And I'd have probably been happy with it. And I'd probably debate its merits with Mac users.

To me, the Mac platform has distinct advantages and disadvantages when compared to the PC platform. The implication that it has none is simply indefensible due to subjectivity (like the alleged superiority/inferiority of the OS). But even though its a partially subjective argument (especially when it comes to stuff like 'OS' and 'workflow'), there are some things that we can be more objective about. Like price. Or availability of certain ancillary products, like third party apps.

So by your logic (there's that word again), the people here debating on the PC side, like BONES, for example, also want the debate to turn out a certain way then? Lest they feel chumpish for saving a buck or two?

Oh and did I mention that a PC is to be the next addition to my studio, so that I can partake of its 'advantages'?

Did I mention I broke a cap..... Just kidding (inside joke)

[jones-y]

But this is really a separate matter - if Macs and PCs are within your means, you can discuss advantages or the lack of them without discussing price.

I think people can accept that different cars have different price tags and that for personal reasons someone might like to buy something like a Citroen or a Renault which might cost more than a Honda Accord but a discussion of relative advantages needn't deal with price at all if both are within your means.

I have some cousins with a combined family income well over $200k/yr, and their cars are much older than mine (admittedly I'm a recent college grad, still driving the first car I ever owned, which I bought new), and were less expensive at purchase time, and have reputations of inexpensive maintenance. At the time, they could've afforded two lexus'es. But they didn't, and price was a significant component in the decision. Yes people can and do buy stuff for personal reasons, when there are less expensive options (I've done so myself ), but this argument, in my mind, does not discount the notion of price as an advantage/disadvantage to some degree. Our society is built upon that notion. But then again, neither does my argument discount yours, since you're basically saying 'not necessarily'.

In the case of guitars there is a wide price range - you can buy a second hand clunker or spend everything a man might earn in his lifetime (esp as a musician) on just one guitar. When people evaluate guitars they do it on sound, playability and appearance and there is a lot of brand consciousness and a cult of certain classic instruments in there too.

I think that people can discuss whether one guitar is better than another without bringing price into it.

True. However, In my opinion, initial cost and cost of ownership are, by nature of the captialist/private property society some of us live in, two of the few objective components of the advantages/disadvantages debate. They're not necessarily always considered, but they do constitute advantages IMO, especially when product performance is comparable.

Of course you can discuss which computer platform is better without including price, but, for one, I didn't bring it up, I merely responded, and for two, we're not rich, so its only natural. If I can do 'X' comparably well for less money with one product, then it has an advantage over other competing products. It may have other advantages and disadvantages, both subjective and objective, which will also influence the decision, but it has a point in its corner if it does the same thing cheaper.

[egbert]

That would be true but we were talking about the reverse - it was asserted that Bs had NO advantage over As - this does not imply that As have advantages over Bs - there might be no advantages on either side.

I see now, it wasn't an implication of disadvantage, but rather an implication of lack of advantage. However it is still a slightly subjective argument, and a pretty thin line betwixt the two. Therefore, in my mind, it fits more so in the realm of opinion than fact. I can live with that, if it is made clear that it is, at least partially, an opinion.

That logic thing was my only point.

You know how you want that Mac/PC debate to come out - if you paid more for your Mac it just has to have advantages or you will feel like a chump.

Is that what you infer (BTW, thanks for the correction, I love a person that -
can debate civilly! did I use it right this time?) from my previous posts in this thread? You know, at one time (in the not too distant past) I would've wanted to justify, or even win. But I'm past it now.

In this thread I wasn't interested in a Mac/PC dingdong - just the logic. I couldn't work out why you were persisting with the fallacy - the apparent compulsion on your part to bring advantage and then price into it led me to the "inference" above.it was not intended as a jibe, just an expanation for some human behaviour.

People want to look "good" (sensible, smart whatever) and they will rearrange their perceptions of reality to suit. If someone is doing something illogical you can often see what they are doing in these terms - if Fords and Chevys are much of a muchness and a purchaser with no brand allegiance must choose one he will experience some anxiety about making the right choice. If you measure the prospective purchasers evaluations of the two competing products before and after purchase you observe and interesting thing: if evaluations are very close prior to the choice they will diverge afterwards. The perceived quality/value of the chosen brand will ramp up and that of the rejected brand will decline sharply. This is how we cope with post purchase anxiety (Did I pick the right one?). In Psychology the term "cognitive dissonance" had a vogue a while back when dealing with this sort of situation. The idea was that two incompatible ideas don't sit comfortably together.
1. I am smart and make wise choices
and
2. I may have made a bad choice.

To preserve the first conclusion and our self regard we have to adjust reality. We distort our perception of the forgone choice - make it worse than it seemed only just before purchase. Sales people understand this and often try to help validate our choices by praising the chosen product and/or pointing out deficits in the rejected one.

Eg

[jones-y]

In this thread I wasn't interested in a Mac/PC dingdong - just the logic. I couldn't work out why you were persisting with the fallacy - the apparent compulsion on your part to bring advantage and then price into it led me to the "inference" above.it was not intended as a jibe, just an expanation for some human behaviour.

People want to look "good" (sensible, smart whatever) and they will rearrange their perceptions of reality to suit. If someone is doing something illogical you can often see what they are doing in these terms - if Fords and Chevys are much of a muchness and a purchaser with no brand allegiance must choose one he will experience some anxiety about making the right choice. If you measure the prospective purchasers evaluations of the two competing products before and after purchase you observe and interesting thing: if evaluations are very close prior to the choice they will diverge afterwards. The perceived quality/value of the chosen brand will ramp up and that of the rejected brand will decline sharply. This is how we cope with post purchase anxiety (Did I pick the right one?). In Psychology the term "cognitive dissonance" had a vogue a while back when dealing with this sort of situation. The idea was that two incompatible ideas don't sit comfortably together.
1. I am smart and make wise choices
and
2. I may have made a bad choice.

To preserve the first conclusion and our self regard we have to adjust reality. We distort our perception of the forgone choice - make it worse than it seemed only just before purchase. Sales people understand this and often try to help validate our choices by praising the chosen product and/or pointing out deficits in the rejected one.

Eg

Interesting. I'm mature enough to say right now that if I had to make those purchasing decisions again, in an informed state, I probably would choose the PC platform. As I said before, about three pages ago. It seems as if you haven't read my posts prior to the advantage/disadvantage thing.

Also, an aspect that the above theory neglects is, as experience is gained in using a product, one is better able to assess its strengths and weaknesses. However in comparing those strengths and weaknesses to those of another product, it loses pretty much all of its objectivity, unless the individual is equally experienced with both. And I feel I am. I maintain my fiancee's PC at home, I work on a PC all day, I do PC troubleshooting/repair/building/consulting for pocket change in my spare time. And pretty soon there will be a PC in my studio.

In a nutshell, interesting thery, but I don't think it applies to me. Of course you'll chalk that reaction up to some other theory...

[jones-y]

I couldn't work out why you were persisting with the fallacy - the apparent compulsion on your part to bring advantage and then price into

I brought neither advantage nor price into the debate. I responded after someone else did.

[egbert]

Interesting. I'm mature enough to say right now that if I had to make those purchasing decisions again, in an informed state, I probably would choose the PC platform. As I said before, about three pages ago. It seems as if you haven't read my posts prior to the advantage/disadvantage thing.

Also, an aspect that the above theory neglects is, as experience is gained in using a product, one is better able to assess its strengths and weaknesses. However in comparing those strengths and weaknesses to those of another product, it loses pretty much all of its objectivity, unless the individual is equally experienced with both. And I feel I am. I maintain my fiancee's PC at home, I work on a PC all day, I do PC troubleshooting/repair/building/consulting for pocket change in my spare time. And pretty soon there will be a PC in my studio.

In a nutshell, interesting thery, but I don't think it applies to me. Of course you'll chalk that reaction up to some other theory...

I wasn't trying to "nail" you on anything - I'm fine with whatever you want to use really. I was more interested in thinking about thinking and behaviour which I find diverting up to a point

This is all a bit off the topic of the thread I guess so perhaps we should retire it or take it to PM or something if we aren't done.

Regards,
Eg

[jones-y]

Hell, the only reason it remained 'on topic' for 6 pages is because its a contentious issue...

[caganer]

m3n74| m457urB47i0N

[jones-y]

m3n74| m457urB47i0N

...w17h n0 l07i0n...

[egbert]

m3n74| m457urB47i0N

...w17h n0 l07i0n...

LOL
:-O