Alan Parsons on compression - from the man himself...

[Stupid American Pig]

Honestly, the sound quality of abbey raod and DSOTM are IMHO the benchmark that all other albums should be measured against...

[McLilith]

It is interesting how certain people in this thread want to say that the production of AP isn't all that…..but yet haven't given ONE example of what they consider good production.

They haven't even told us what's wrong with Alan Parsons yet.

I'm seriously starting to believe that they just don't like some of the music or musicians he worked with--not his recording skills. If Alan's recording skills are seriously lacking, I would really like to know in what way.


later,
McLilith

[SJ_Digriz]

My guess is that they like club mixes where the AVG is -6 to -4 with narry a peek or drop. There are music styles that lend themselves to ultra-smashed linear SPL, club music being among them. It actually takes skill to mix to those levels properly so I don't necessarily discount the engineering. But, I'd be hard pressed to choose between Barry Manilow and club/dance/dj music. That is the essence of rock and a hard place choice.

[Ronny Pries]

to go back to the initial post:

as much as compressors can be used to kill dynamics over the entire mix they can also be used for shaping sounds. that are 2 different things and i don't see that anyone, anywhere ever made a difference between them. how come?

it's like regarding noodles beeing pasta in every case, not as optional side order. (hope this isn't too abstract again )

ronny

[SJ_Digriz]

as much as compressors can be used to kill dynamics over the entire mix they can also be used for shaping sounds. that are 2 different things and i don't see that anyone, anywhere ever made a difference between them. how come?

If you look at my original posts I pointed out that there is a huge difference between using a compressor as an effect and using it as a leveler. That was the entire point of that comment.

[shamann]

They haven't even told us what's wrong with Alan Parsons yet.

I'm seriously starting to believe that they just don't like some of the music or musicians he worked with--not his recording skills. If Alan's recording skills are seriously lacking, I would really like to know in what way.

I can't be arsed to read through yet another dynamics processing flame thread, but I suspect you're right. Although, to a degree that's sort of the point. Who listens to music for production quality alone? And production quality should be about the music, so they are to a degree inseparable.

I can't say I'm an Alan Parsons afficianado, wouldn't know what he had recorded outside of the Alan Parsons Project. But I can say his recordings that I've heard are not my preferred approach to recording. Consider 'Eye in the Sky", a pleasant tune but wiped clean of any sharp edges. It's that "recorded in an airtight room" aesthetic of the 1980s mainstream.

Remember when Moody Blues made some comeback albums in the mid-80s? Or even "Touch of Grey" by the Grateful Dead? Or think of that Huey Lewis and the News sound. Or 80s Peter Cetera/Chicago. Same kind of overall sound, where everything was expected to sound the same: glossy, no pitch or noise out of place, so that everything was smooth and inoffensive, and all recorded in the same pristine soundproofed room.

Back to AP, listen to the rock opera schmaltz of I Robot and compare it to similar albums of the time, like Tod Rundgren's work with Meatloaf on Bat Out of Hell or Eno's work with Genesis on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Hate the music on those two examples if you want, but listen to the recordings. There's life in the flaws they allowed through. And the recording style and tricks sound reactive to the music. I Robot is fairly lifeless by comaprison, as it sounds recorded by the numbers, albeit highly skilled glossy numbers. But the record doesn't sound made for the music specifically, just 'music meet our recording process".

That said, it seems to me that those in the camp who prefer to overdo dynamics compression will stop at nothing to justify it. But we live in a world of destructive excess, and people justify their behaviour all the time, so should we expect different from this field?

Cheers,
Steve

[nuffink]

It is interesting how certain people in this thread want to say that the production of AP isn't all that…..but yet haven't given ONE example of what they consider good production.

They haven't even told us what's wrong with Alan Parsons yet.

I'm seriously starting to believe that they just don't like some of the music or musicians he worked with--not his recording skills. If Alan's recording skills are seriously lacking, I would really like to know in what way.

I don't like his work, it's as simple as that.
I think his stuff sounds like a chad valley version of Becker and Fagan.

[McLilith]

I don't like his work, it's as simple as that.
I think his stuff sounds like a chad valley version of Becker and Fagan.

I still don't know what the essence of your distaste is. Perhaps it's something you simply can't put into words, and if you can't, I'll have to accept that. However, I'll never know exactly (or even roughly) what you don't like about his recordings. I (and others on the forum) will have lost a chance to be enlightened by your personal perspective.

It doesn't bother me, if you don't like Alan Parsons's recording techniques, but the reason why is simply puzzling to me.

As for Becker and Fagan, I thought they created some nice material. I thought some of their radio hits wore thin at times, because of over-exposure, but I definitely thought they had talent. (You can pick almost any act that has had huge radio success, and at least one of their songs probably wore thin on a lot of people. Radio has a way of wearing out a good thing. )

I don't actually own any of their albums, but I always meant to get around to it, one of these days.


take care,
McLilith

[Evan]

I have listened to a few albums by the Alan Parsons Project. I assume that AP is responsible for the production.

I am not blown away, not even close. While I do like many of their songs, the production is not of my taste. I don't know how to properly describe it in english. It sounds very mild, anemic... lacking in punch.

I am fond of the contemporary sort of aggressive, solid and clean sound of many recent recordings. Porcupine Tree's "In Absentia" (awesome album) and "Deadwing" would be a fitting example.

Compressors are so enormously flexible tools that may be used in a million different configurations and produce different end results. I don't agree that compression equals lack of dynamics. Compressors can actually emphasize dynamics in certain settings: slow attack can let transients come through unaffected while the body of the signal gets processed causing an engancement in dynamics. At least that's how I understand it.

I won't go deep into the whole array of possible compression techniques here... but suffice to say that as long as we are not talking about heavy global master compression on the whole mix... one can use these tools creating a very good sounding mix with tons of dynamics if that's what they are aiming at.

[SJ_Digriz]

I am fond of the contemporary sort of aggressive, solid and clean sound of many recent recordings. Porcupine Tree's "In Absentia" (awesome album) and "Deadwing" would be a fitting example.

See here is the problem. There is a huge communication gap on what dynamics are. I like In Absentia and Deadwing. Blackest Eyes is a kick ass song for example But they are terrible examples of production. There are NO dymamics in those songs. They are compressed to a high AVG RMS. Everything jumps out in turn.

I'm not getting on you Evan, far from it. I just want to point out that you have been trained to perceive quiet as "non-punchy" and loud as "sounds good". PT is an example of the idea that single instrument fade-in out is dynamics. That just isn't the case.

[McLilith]

Hi Evan,

Most of your words defending compressors probably aren't really needed, because I don't think anyone here is saying that all the possible uses of compressors are bad. I think those of use who made the complaint, are only referring to what we consider a gross over-use of compressors and/or limiters.

To you give you a personal example, I don't like the sound of NIN's latest song, "The Hand That Feeds" (or whatever it's called.) To me, that song seems very lacking in dynamic range, and overly-fatiguing to listen to. I suppose that might have been artistic choice by NIN, but it's not something that I personally enjoy. I did like "Head Like a Hole", and "Closer", so I don't think it's just a case of my not liking radio-friendly NIN material. I think it's a case of the current song not having any serious amount of dynamic range (and possibly the amount of distortion that was used on so many of the sounds--too many, if you ask me. Of course, some types of distortion reduce dynamic range as well.)

Perhaps it would be better for me to state that I don't like material which is lacking in dynamic range? That would include the abuse of compressors, but it would also include other things such as excessive distortion applied to nearly all the instruments (and sometimes vocals) in the track. I generally like some variation in the levels, and the timbres used in a song.


take care,
McLilith

[jens]

can there be anything more dynamic than e.g. 'a dream within a dream', Genesis blablabla', 'the great gig in the sky', 'us and them', etc.?

[Evan]

What I am trying to say is that in the end (like most things in life really) it comes down to personal taste.

SJ_Digriz, thank you for your thoughts. You did say something very interesting to me: you have been trained to perceive quiet as "non-punchy" and loud as "sounds good". Could I not claim the opposite for people who disagree with me then? Like: they have been trained to perceive quiet as "punchy" or dynamic and loud as "sounds bad"?

You are most likely correct, my brain is trained to favor certain types of sounds... like everyone else! If, for example, I and others enjoy overcompressed sound why should we call it universally terrible?

I listen to many completely different styles of music, from classical to contemporary and many inbetween and I enjoy certain qualities from each genre. But I do have favourite approaches in sound and production, like everyone else.

There is no single one-way approach to a perfect mix... there are tons of different ones for the different tastes and trained brains out there.

[McLilith]

can there be anything more dynamic than e.g. 'a dream within a dream', Genesis blablabla', 'the great gig in the sky', 'us and them', etc.?

"Your Possible Pasts", from Pink Floyd's album "The Final Cut", comes to mind.

That whole album is very dynamic, as are Roger Waters' solo albums "Amused To Death" and "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking".

I find it amusing when people describe a recording with a nearly constant -1dB amplitude, as a recording with a lot of "punch".

"Grind" would be a much more appropriate term, because it implies a (nearly) constant, sustained event, such as those recordings.

"Punch" implies a possibly violent transient event. It also implies that the conditions before and after the "punch" were relatively calm. "Punch" is a much more fitting term to apply to a recording that contains significant moderate or soft passages, with some loud transients or forte passages included in the performance, and accurately reproduced in the recording.

I definitely think there is a communication gap here, for some people.


take care,
McLilith

[SJ_Digriz]

SJ_Digriz, thank you for your thoughts. You did say something very interesting to me: you have been trained to perceive quiet as "non-punchy" and loud as "sounds good". Could I not claim the opposite for people who disagree with me then? Like: they have been trained to perceive quiet as "punchy" or dynamic and loud as "sounds bad"?

Absolutely, I have no problem with this thought at all. However, I like PT even though I wish they allowed more dynamics into the songs. I think a lot of Rock music is enhanced by compression and other studio techniques. I think that's one of the reasons that most rock bands suck live. They are too damned lazy to "produce" there live sound.

I'll give you another example from In Absentia. The song "The Createor has a Mastertape" is so overcompressed that the strings are distorted and swamp out the song in what would otherwise be an extremely moving and lyrical piece. To me that could be the best song on the album but the compression makes it to harsh for me to listen to on the CD. Interestingly enough, the DVD-A version does NOT have the same level of compression and is AWESOME, but I can't pop that in the car CD player.