Why is the Hollow Sun download page down?

[McLilith]

Hi Johnny,

If Steve were to give me the express permission to do so, I might be able to forward some of the Hollow Sun freebie samples to you, if you need some of them. I don't know if I have all of them, but I know that I downloaded some of them.

----------------------------------------

Hi Steve,

Would it be okay with you, if we shared the Hollow Sun freebie samples amongst ourselves? It would be a way of circulating the samples, without you having to pay for the bandwidth. If you think further circulation of the freebies might hurt your commercial sales, I would understand, and I promise not to share any of the freebie samples in that case.

Whatever you want, I'll certainly respect. I'm just trying to be helpful. I thought perhaps I could make both you and Johnny happy at the same time, by providing him some freebie samples, and saving you on bandwidth costs (assuming that was the primary reason you dropped the free samples from your site.)


take care,
McLilith

Please tell me this is a joke ?!?!?!?

No, not really.

I don't remember the full story about why Steve removed the free samples. If it was simply from not wanting to fund the server and bandwidth expenses any longer, for a service that brought him no financial gain, then my idea seems like a reasonable suggestion.

On the other hand, if he removed the free samples because they were cutting too deeply into his commercial sales, that's fine with me. I would do the same, if I were in his situation. In this case, I would expect a simple answer of "no" from Steve.

I'm not sure what you find so incredulous about the suggestion. All Steve has to say is yes or no, and that's all there is to it. It's really rather simple. I was just trying to see if a compromise could be found which would end the fueding in this thread and make everyone happy again.


Your friendly eternal optimist,
McLilith

[kovacs]

Can I ask a question here...can the Hollow Sun disks be used with SampleTank 2?

I love the sound demos on the HS website. Really nice.

[Spe3D]

Here is a cynical point of view – I am not saying it is the intention but could be seen as detrimental to Steves on line sales.

The request for descriptions to stay up – could be seen as a way to back-up interchange of the previously free samples – they would just need the files and go to the site to get the info (still creating bandwidth drains of types)

Another thing, distribution of these files by any of my hosted clients in not permitted –period.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

I just want to use this chance to thank you spe3d for your ongoing contribution to the ones who can't pay and the ones who can pay a bit in this community.
Much Kudos to you

Thank you Whoomph

Mind you this thread has given me lots to think about since it started regarding samples, I may need to re-think my distrabution of those in the future - along with many many other sample guys no doubt.

I have an idea that may work out for the best re my sites - given a few pointers to the others too.

I think it will be a half n half situation some free, some donation and some pay for sounds - this should keep all happy in the future plus make room for getting new kit for even more sample recording. I think the idea of just free my be detrimental for all if the ideologys exibited by some is a firm mindset.

I think though the percentage of these is about 30% (the guys who got to the root of the websites and set spiders over them to collect graphics and archives, they are a serious problem to the free file providers - this is where the leech comes from)

about 50% are for real and genuine and these I am well happy to be providing free hosting to and sounds, they contribute back in comments to others music and art etc. 20% of others pay for hosting and that keeps things going - thats the stats as I see them in the most basic. it has got to hit the guys real hard who dont have the servers and bandwidth I would think.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[hollowsun]

Hi Steve,

Would it be okay with you, if we shared the Hollow Sun freebie samples amongst ourselves? It would be a way of circulating the samples, without you having to pay for the bandwidth. If you think further circulation of the freebies might hurt your commercial sales, I would understand, and I promise not to share any of the freebie samples in that case.

Whatever you want, I'll certainly respect. I'm just trying to be helpful. I thought perhaps I could make both you and Johnny happy at the same time, by providing him some freebie samples, and saving you on bandwidth costs (assuming that was the primary reason you dropped the free samples from your site.)

Hi McLilith,

I know you're trying to help .... and thanks. The reason I have suspended (note - suspended NOT withdrawn!!!) the freebie service is not bandwidth per se but because it is hurting sales.

If people were coming along to HS, downloading some stuff and then, so impressed are they with the quality of the freebies that they then pay the small amount to buy a CD (the contents of which leave the free on-line stuff standing BTW), this wouldn't be an issue but the fact of the matter is (as I can tell from my webstats) that people are coming along to the shop and then the large majority discover the downloads which they then plunder to the fullest extent - then they bugger off never to return! And of course, that 'plundering' is leading to excessive bandwidth which in turn is repeatedly and regularly closing the site down which in turn.... etc..

So... as much as I appreciate your offer to take the heat off me, that wouldn't help - people would just go to you for the freebie sounds instead and then HS would almost certainly die completely.

My problem isn't bandwidth as such (I can find remedies to that) neither is it (as implied elsewhere) bad luck or bad marketing - as I think has been proven from just this thread alone, HS is a popular site for a variety of reasons - the quality of the sounds, the instruments' history and, not least, the freebies. 30,000+ (and rising) visitors a month is a testament to the site's popularity.

No - the problem is people just taking the piss... taking, taking, taking from the site with scant (or no) regard to the service it offers and giving nothing back. D'ya know one of the biggest ironies in all of this? Some of the best customers who have bought the CDs are those who have actually donated sounds (or their services) to the site to make it what it is - they were the first in the queue when the CDs went on sale and many of them were buying their own sounds back .... just to support the site!!!

I am currently simply seeking ways to keep HS alive because I understand what a popular resource it is (as proven by the overwhelming show of support here) but, as other posts have touched upon, maybe I have gone about things slightly arse about face!

It is clearly evident that I offer too much in the way of freebies and this is distracting from CD sales that would go towards keeping the site (and myself!) alive and this is something I plan to address - maybe offer a free download facility along the lines of what I did with the MPC1000 'Kit Of The Week' for Akai with maybe a 'Sound of the month' (or somesuch).

To allay any fears, as soon as I have some spare time, I will be resurrecting the instrument histories. They won't have the free downloads associated with them - maybe some MP3s of the sounds instead ... or maybe some limited or 'lite' download ... dunno yet - but people will still be able to read the stories behind these fascinating instruments. All sorts of ideas are bubbling away here (many inspired by the comments in this thread - thanks!).

Listen.... no-one is more disappointed than I am that Hollow Sun's core service has been suspended and it was a horrible decision for me to make - after all, I have invested nearly four years of work and effort and (mostly spare) time and (literally!) thousands of $$$ into the enterprise for little or no reward. I was once in a position to afford this and it was good for me and it was good for the sampling community and it also helped Akai but my circumstances have changed - quite drastically. When things went belly up in my life recently, I was rather banking on Hollow Sun's popularity to provide me with a source of income but I was wrong - it seems its popularity was based on the fact that it's free, not that the quality of the stuff is second to none and better than you might find in many commercially available libraries (tho I say so myself!!!! ). And I naiively thought that a certain percentage of the traffic would dip their hands in their pockets to A) get more sounds and B) support the site/venture. Not so - I was wrong.

As a result, I just have to rethink the future direction of Hollow Sun. It might not happen overnight so please be patient.

One thing's for sure though - distributing my library for free ain't gonna help me any! On the contrary in fact. But thanks for the offer - I know it came with the very best of intentions!


Steve

[McLilith]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I completely understand, and I promise not to share any of the freebies I had downloaded earlier.

I also agree that you had a high quality of free samples available, as well as a wide variety. I would certainly recommend your commercial sample CDs to anyone. I hope you start making more money from your samples very soon. You certainly deserve it.


take care,
McLilith

[Jace-BeOS]

Steve, I think you got it: The sheer amount of free stuff distracted from the CDs for sale. I downloaded everything because I wanted a wider "vintage" library from which to pick and choose (fearing the resource would vanish. Dumbass that I am, I missed that the vintage collection is free with purchases. I spent less time thinking about the CDs for sale and more time auditioning the free stuff. Sometimes too much of a good thing is bad.

The informational text is a GREAT great value. It alone makes Hollow Sun an excellent resource. The texts taught me LOTS about synths I never knew or knew little about. I actually went out and bought a Fairlight audio sample CD discovered when your links brought me to another fine Fairlight site. So I think that your informational texts will aid your sales offerings. Especially if the vintage collection continues to come with purchases.

I wish the Fairlight CD had Hollow Sun level of "preparedness" as it is just an audio CD. I have to do all the work myself. I know what kind of work that is, too. So... that's a tip for future product

[Jeremy_NSL]

Hi Steve. Sorry to hear things aren't working out with Hollowsun. Here is my humble suggestion:

Only the latest additions to the library are available for free. So, for instance, freesets since say January are available but anything older is not. And then next month just sets from feb 05 onward are available. Etc. etc. Or whatever time period works best for you.

This way there might be 20 or so sample sets available at any one time out of possible hundreds. And it will give people a taste of what your Hollowsun cds offer. Just an idea

[kovacs]

Maybe a subscription service? Charge a fee for subscribers. Those who buy a CD get X months of free downloads. Those who just want to download can pay, say, $50 for a month or $10 for a given amount of sounds.

Just my 2c.

And btw, can I use any of the Hollow Sun disks with Sampletank (I asked this above but it probably drowns in the overall discussion).

[Failed Muso]

I wish the Fairlight CD had Hollow Sun level of "preparedness" as it is just an audio CD. I have to do all the work myself. I know what kind of work that is, too. So... that's a tip for future product

That's something I'm working on....slowly but surely

[Bassballjg]

I haven't been in on this thread, partially due to the fact that I have been busy with an illness, and when I did start to follow it, I think that what Steve has done, and what he has said about it, speaks for itself. Others have posted sympathetically and with more eloquence than could I. So, there really isn't much for me to say about this except to repeat that Steve is one of the best people in this scene, one of the all-around good guys who should be supported because the quality of his product and value he is offering is an important community asset.

The free service seems to have fallen victim, at least temporarily, to a variation of the tragedy of the commons. Let this be a lesson: We get free stuff for two reasons, one is as promotional material, the other is on the basis of love of the musical craft, but even free stuff costs something. Put it this way, free or not, you get what you pay for.

Hollow Sun's free srvice was about the latter, but then added the former mission when Steve needed to start earning an income from this facet of his activities. So, I would tend to agree that the sheer volume of the free service was probably undermining its functionality as a promo. It's a topic he and I have discussed. Those same discussions also convinced me firmly of Steve's commitment to keeping alive in musical use the sounds of the classic instruments sampled for the library. There will be some adjustments made, and I don't know what they will be but I do know in my gut that Hollow Sun is here to stay, and some free service will probably return someday, because Steve does it for love.

Love, however, is not an accepted medium of exchange for food, housing and servers. We get what we get in freeware, of the promotional or love kind, because the giver can afford to give. We support a lot of excellent developers in the KVR community not only because of the quality products they sell, but also the personal integrity they bring to their craft and their business pracices. Steve Howell is one of those people, and should be treated as such. If we don't do so, we won't get the benefit of his skills or his love.

Trust me, the only thing that Steve wants more than to put classic synth sounds in people's samplers is to care for his family, and I think that we can all understand and accept that. Fair is fair, and whatever Steve needs to do to sort things out for himself to stay in the sample developing business I will fully support.

For the record, I wish to state that my association with Steve and Hollow Sun through Dangerous Bear Underground represents the high point of my musical career, which began with the purchase of my first bass in 1974. I have had no greater honor, no deeper pleasure, or done any better work than developing the Hollow Sun library in a variety of formats, not just because Steve is a talented pro, but because he is such a gentleman.

[Bassballjg]

Maybe a subscription service? Charge a fee for subscribers. Those who buy a CD get X months of free downloads. Those who just want to download can pay, say, $50 for a month or $10 for a given amount of sounds.

Just my 2c.

And btw, can I use any of the Hollow Sun disks with Sampletank (I asked this above but it probably drowns in the overall discussion).

If you want to use Hollow Sun Sounds in ST2, you can get Synth Solstice from dBu. Remember that royalties are paid on all sales of Hollow Sun-based Dangerous Bear products, so if you need a format not covered on Steve's discs, specfically ST2 and Wusik, buying from Dangerous Bear will get you that Hollow Sun quality and also help support Steve's efforts.

[kovacs]

If you want to use Hollow Sun Sounds in ST2, you can get Synth Solstice from dBu. Remember that royalties are paid on all sales of Hollow Sun-based Dangerous Bear products, so if you need a format not covered on Steve's discs, specfically ST2 and Wusik, buying from Dangerous Bear will get you that Hollow Sun quality and also help support Steve's efforts.

Thanks! I wasn't aware of that...I saw the different dBu group buys and did not realize that it included *this* Hollow Sun soundset - I thought it was just a naming coincidence (so much for doing research...my apologies).

[kovacs]

John, I just ordered the Synth Solstice from you.

[Bassballjg]

John, I just ordered the Synth Solstice from you.

Thanks. Got the order and it should ship tomorrow.

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