Dongle?? WIll Philharmonik have one??

[sghoughton]

Squids,

With what you know about the process, is there any point in buying a second IKey as a spare up front? Or would that be pointless given that one comes in the box? Just curious if we should throw one on the order or not.

steve

[mike85021]

...If you have an issue with the copy protection of this plug-in then I am as high up as you can talk to since we did the sounds and I voted to have them protected. I am sorry but we have to protect our products in the best ways possible. We're not inventing something new here. We using a system that does what it is supposed to do, even if you don't like it.
...

Squids, I respect you. The products I've bought from you are quite wonderful (ST2 XL, Sonic Synth 2, etc.) I hope further versions of those products will remain dongle free.

I'm sorry that you've concluded this is the direction eSoundz must take, but as you say, you have to protect your investments the best way you feel is necessary.

I'm sure loss of the few people like me who refuse dongles and other developer dependent protection schemes will not make a dent in your profits. I wish you well.

I'll be out there on my soap box, though, dongle free, and preaching it.

[Squids]

Zai,

Thanks for kindly stating your thoughts about the subject. That's more like it. A lot of people we rarely hear from have popped into the forum recently as well making accusations that aren't fair. I think I have explained that at length and if anyone doubts our intentions or whether we care etc. then you guys that know us well will have to defend us on that. I feel stupid even having too after all we've done consistently since the beginning.

Anyway, look, I too don't like a hardware key! I am not saying "oh, I like it. You should like it too!" I am way more REAL than that! I am being honest. Copy protection no matter how you slice it is a PITA! Don't we all know this? Of course we do. The most popular DAWS (PT, Cubase and Logic) all use hardware keys. Sure, around here you've got your FL users, your Energy XT users, your Cakewalk and this, that and the other. Maybe some of you aren't used to even using hardware keys before. Certainly it is new for an IK product (although actually years ago my TRacks had a hardware key).

So, naturally, it will take some getting used to. But, really, once it is authorized you just pop it in and you go. It's funny that all the complaints about not being able to wipe your HD haven't even come up anymore (Murphy's Law) but the authorization being tied to a non-volatile source such as an external USB key sure beats tying your authorization to your hard drives at least in terms of having to use up authorizations. Plus you can take it with you and use it on any system. Plus, you can resell it if you don't like it... the user does have to pay a license transfer fee still... sorry, did I just open the door for more abuse? But, at least finally they CAN resell something from SR because of this "can only be in one place at one time" factor that otherwise only hardware instruments tend to allow.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

If you have multiple licenses from different companies and send it in broken that is a new one on me. But, one way or another the companies would have to figure it out for you. I'll try to find out a more specific answer to this question as I am sure there is one.

Yes, it would be good to know the answer since one supposed advantage of using a "standard" dongle is that you can put all of your licenses on one dongle and not have to deal with a whole batch of them -- as mentioned, even in this thread. However, doing so might be *very* risky in the event of a broken dongle if there is no *practical* way of dealing with lots of -- potentially, cross-company -- authorizations on a single broken dongle. Thanks.

[Squids]

Squids,

With what you know about the process, is there any point in buying a second IKey as a spare up front? Or would that be pointless given that one comes in the box? Just curious if we should throw one on the order or not.

steve

This is new to me too. I don't recommend getting a spare upfront just yet. It's mostly for people who want to buy a second license. I will get back to you guys with more info on that.

[Joseph Burrell]

Dave, I think you're handling it well. As you've stated here, this is just one of those things people are passionate about. I've decided not to purchase a few things because the product was not worth the CP scheme involved (IMO). Case in point, Samplitude and True Strike VI. However, I do think I'm still going to go for this. I know a few people that use dongles (and as I said here already I use one for Lightwave 3D) and there's really no big deal. Sometimes, I'd rather deal with that than say, waiting on the Native Instruments website to finally appear after a server outage. And reinstalling won't be such a nightmare with the dongle. Its all relative. We users just have to realize that high quality products now come with this attached to the purchase. It IS unfortunate that so many schemes exist and I for one would be more comfortable adopting this or that scheme if there were some accepted universal format. Unfortunately, I see a time when every Tom, Dick, and Miroslav has his own individual form of protection. But what are you going to do? Maybe in 5 years time the trend will fall away and the market will be trusting again. I certainly hope so. Until then, it looks like something we'll have to put up with.

I wish for your success with this product and hopefully this is just a small bump that will be overcome once it hits the streets and people realize what their getting.

[Squids]

...If you have an issue with the copy protection of this plug-in then I am as high up as you can talk to since we did the sounds and I voted to have them protected. I am sorry but we have to protect our products in the best ways possible. We're not inventing something new here. We using a system that does what it is supposed to do, even if you don't like it.
...

Squids, I respect you. The products I've bought from you are quite wonderful (ST2 XL, Sonic Synth 2, etc.) I hope futer versions of those products will remain dongle free.

I'm sorry that you've concluded this is the direction eSoundz must take, but as you say, you have to protect your investments the best way you feel is necessary.

I'm sure loss of the few people like me who refuse dongles and other developer dependent protection schemes will not make a dent in your profits. I wish you well.

I'll be out there on my soap box, though, dongle free, and preaching it.

Thanks Mike. Let me just clarify something. It is not esoundz that takes this decision. esoundz will sell IKey-less and IKey-included products depending on how they are provided to esoundz by the manufacturer. www.esoundz.com is just a store, a portal for products. That's all it is. So, it will continue to provide SOUNDZ every which way. We already sell the Miroslav sounds IKey-free in formats like Akai, Giga and other formats perhaps still to come. It may cost a bit more than the plug-in that can be less because of the USB key but again that is just how the product is given to ANY dealer such as esoundz.

IK Multimedia - the software plug-in manufacturer and also world-wide distributor (supplier to stores)
Sonic Reality - developer and/or programmer of the sounds

esoundz.com - happens to be a web store created by SR to have an outlet for our sounds and some direct control of the speed of funds to support us... in other words, for years sound companies have had to wait for retailers to pay distributors and then to pay the sound developers (last in the chain). We still have to but that isn't our only source of income and if it was then we could not do all that we do! So we have this outlet and it has expanded beyond just Sonic Reality into what is becoming more and more its own entity... yet it's focus on being the most complete source of SR work on the planet still remains. Everything SR makes is always in stock (once it is shipping).

So, even if anyone doesn't like USB keys to the point where they are prepared to miss out on something as wonderful as Philharmonik, please don't bail on esoundz.com in fear that the whole site will be done the same way. It physically can't if the sounds support so many different formats.

[Squids]

If you have multiple licenses from different companies and send it in broken that is a new one on me. But, one way or another the companies would have to figure it out for you. I'll try to find out a more specific answer to this question as I am sure there is one.

Yes, it would be good to know the answer since one supposed advantage of using a "standard" dongle is that you can put all of your licenses on one dongle and not have to deal with a whole batch of them -- as mentioned, even in this thread. However, doing so might be *very* risky in the event of a broken dongle if there is no *practical* way of dealing with lots of -- potentially, cross-company -- authorizations on a single broken dongle. Thanks.

Yes, I will find out. Although, it is good to remind that the occurance of USB keys breaking has to be very rare. It is so small with no moving parts. I've never broken one and I've owned quite a few. Still, it could fall out of your pocket and be run over by a car! Anything could happen... but then again, anything can happen with any of your gear!

This reminds me of my poor Novation MM10X (I think that's what it was called... it had a space for a QY20 in it). One NAMM years ago I brought it to the show to use as a controller for the very first early version of Sonic Synth 1 (before it was even in ST format). I was going to have someone walking around with a laptop and the keyboard in a space outfit (sort of like Moog Cookbook who I had helped with their last record). Anyway, it didn't happen because one of my employees put the keyboard on top of my car and we drove away the day before. I remember distinctly the sound of it falling off. I said "What was that????" and one of the other guys said "Oh, that was your keyboard. Adam put it on the roof". He said it so matter of fact with no emotion. So, I said "What?????" and we turned around to see if might still be in one piece (yeah right) but it was being run over and over into a million pieces. But, that was a big plastic unit with a lot of moving parts. Either way, if you own something then don't leave it on the roof of a car when you drive away.

The best example of keeping track of the IKey is your OWN house or car keys. How often do you lose them? You take it pretty seriously right? It's tied to something important that you own. Hey, I just thought of something funny to think about. Imagine if everyone complained that CARS had keys! So you bought a Cakewalk car that didn't have a key. Anyone could just get in and drive. How long do you think you'd have that car in your possession?

Always use protection. Good motto.

[Scant]

Just my two cents.

I don't personally have a problem with dongles, never had to use one before. I run Cubase SX2 and was going to purchase SX3 until the SonikTank Groupbuy came up (Had saved up money to buy it, this money is now gone due to the group buy and Philharmonik). The fact that I would have paid $800 for my software to only see it availble on the net a few weeks later for free make me support the dongle.

And it isn't that squids doesn't trust us because he is some evil tyrannt but humans beings can be somewhat 'disgusting'. He has to protect himself as well as the paying customers.

Just think of it as buying a Fanthom keyboard...you pick it up and go where you want...when you get there you use it and then leave.

[Mallory]

I see some people are a bit shocked over this revelation. Personally I don't see it as such a big issue as its just a different form of protection than IK has used before.

Point 1: Buying Software + dongle is a bit like buying a hardware product. So a software synth + dongle is somewhat like a very low cost and amazingly powerful hardware synth rack module. That doesnt sound such a bad deal to me. Obviously real hardware racks have a few advantages - they don't consume PC resources and are usually rock solid reliable but then they do tend to cost a *lot* more than software.

Point 2: If I had a dongle containing the authorisations to so many products for which I had paid I too would be concerned about breakage/theft/loss/etc. In which case the logical thing is not to whine about it but instead insure the thing based on the actual value of replacing it and its contents. After all if I owned all that stuff as hardware I would be crazy not to insure it.

Point 3: Years ago I remember how dongles were a real problem in that they tended to screw up PCs and interfere with general operations. Parallel Port dongles were the worst culprit as I know from personal experience as I worked for a developer that included one, for a while, in a product. In the end it caused so many problems for the legitimate buyers that we had to abandon it. I have no experience of USB dongles but ideally should have no detrimental effects on the system.

In conclusion: I think dongles are a fair way to protect a software product against copying. People who buy lots of this stuff should insure the dongle and its contents against loss and damage etc. The supplier should provide fast high quality support to customers who have unexpected problems with the dongles.


One actual question remains however. If one had a dongle containing many software authorisations and you wanted to sell just one, how would that be managed given you can't give the buyer the dongle itself ?

[Squids]

Dave, I think you're handling it well. As you've stated here, this is just one of those things people are passionate about. I've decided not to purchase a few things because the product was not worth the CP scheme involved (IMO). Case in point, Samplitude and True Strike VI. However, I do think I'm still going to go for this. I know a few people that use dongles (and as I said here already I use one for Lightwave 3D) and there's really no big deal. Sometimes, I'd rather deal with that than say, waiting on the Native Instruments website to finally appear after a server outage. And reinstalling won't be such a nightmare with the dongle. Its all relative. We users just have to realize that high quality products now come with this attached to the purchase. It IS unfortunate that so many schemes exist and I for one would be more comfortable adopting this or that scheme if there were some accepted universal format. Unfortunately, I see a time when every Tom, Dick, and Miroslav has his own individual form of protection. But what are you going to do? Maybe in 5 years time the trend will fall away and the market will be trusting again. I certainly hope so. Until then, it looks like something we'll have to put up with.

I wish for your success with this product and hopefully this is just a small bump that will be overcome once it hits the streets and people realize what their getting.

I am all for universal standards not only in copy protection but also how about plug-in formats? Do we need this many? It sure takes a lot more time, energy and resources to do products for all the popular formats on the Mac and PC. Then there's sampler formats... the list goes on. I am still not over the issue of so many different audio formats, 3 pin hot etc etc.

So, when it comes to USB keys there are Ilok and Syncrosoft that are popularly used and then some companies have their own. Which is the lesser of two evils I really don't know. But, at least it isn't off into some other non-standard territory. If somehow a universal single copy protection method existed that really did improve the amount of legit users registered then who knows?

Anyway, thanks for your comments Joselph. I appreciate the support. I think I am going to bed now (1:30 am, last one standing).

I'll try to get the questions answered. Please be patient as I do also have to run a whole company and we have 20 volumes of Refills in Reason 3 to get out the door which we are late on (no copy protection in case anyone was confused into thinking everything SR does not has to use a USB key which isn't true). Boy am I tired!

[Squids]

\

One actual question remains however. If one had a dongle containing many software authorisations and you wanted to sell just one, how would that be managed given you can't give the buyer the dongle itself ?

Okay. Before I drop for the night... this is easy. Licenses can be transfered on and off keys. So, chances are if you own two products that use this key you have two keys and can transfer back and forth between then in any compbination as you need. If you have one key with many products then that is a case where you can buy a spare key and move some licenses to your other key to seperate them.

Night!

[gnu23]

Sorry but the dongle kills it for me. I know too many unhappy Cubase users to trust them.

See ya,
Gordon

Same here. While I have enjoyed reading posts from Squids and believe him to be an upfront guy, this is where I get off the IK bus. Unfortunately, that also includes Sonic Reality given their close partnership.

Time to find another sampler and compatible libraries. I'm glad I didn't sink too much cash into their products...

So, you skip Sonic Reality and ignore that we also support most of the other software sampler formats too? Thanks. I am glad we go to that effort only to be tossed away because of our "close partnership". We don't only make sounds in SampleTank format.

Are these comments made to hurt us? They do you know. In many ways.

Sorry, Squids, but yeah I don't buy products from any company that requires dongle-based copy protection. I'll stop doing business with any company that decides to implement it whether it's for one product in their line or across-the-board.

There are numerous companies out there that have easy-to-use serial systems - Spectrasonics comes immediately to mind and others have mentioned Cakewalk - so I won't buy into the "dongle rationale".

A "dongle keyring"? No, thanks. I carry exactly one "device" on my keyring. It's my RSA SecureID token. That device makes sense. A dongle for a piece of software doesn't - let alone multiple dongles for multiple pieces of software.

Were my earlier comments intended to hurt you personally? Of course not. This is a business relationship. You, as head of your company, implemented a business decision. As a customer of your company I decided to terminate my end of that bargain based on your decision. That's business and that's all it is. If you take my comments personally, well, that's your problem, not mine.

Does Sonic Reality make good products? In the main, yes they do. The same for IK? Yes, in the main. Some folks will not care about the dongle requirement at all. That's perfectly ok. I am not one of those people. I won't use a dongle-based software product, period. I won't recommend software that requires hardware-based copy protection, period.

It's your company so by all means do what you think is best with it. It's my money. You can rest assured I will do likewise.

We're not going to agree on this topic, Squids. That doesn't mean I don't like you. Hell, outside this forum, I don't even know you. What I don't like is the decision you made. As a customer, I have the right to express that sentiment. I've done no more and no less than that. And last time I checked this is the proper forum...

[Squids]

Fine, I will end on this note for the evening. Gnu, you seem to miss the offense I was reacting to. I can understand it if you don't like a product that has a USB key. But, writing off esoundz and/or Sonic Reality products on the whole when they are not all using USB keys is not only really limiting for you but also comes off in a sort of "punishing" way. Maybe you don't mean it that way, maybe you do. Either way, I don't think it is what we deserve for all we've done and continue to do for our customers to earn their business, loyalty or support.

Anyway, I am sitting here playing this wonderful instrument thinking that one would be really missing out if they limited themselves from getting it let alone everything else we do. To each his own. It's equal loss and equal gain.

[Kim Lajoie]

I'm glad we're having some civil discussion now! Took almost 7 pages to get here though!

To all who are jumping ship because of this USB hardware key business, you've obviously made up your mind so I'm not going to preach (probably just as well, after Squids' megaposts!). I just hope you make lots of music with whatever you end up using. Ultimately that's why we're all here - because we love making music! The tools are just that - tools. In the end it's the music that matters.

-Kim.