24-TET arabic scale and microtuning, please help.

[Rottweiler]

is there any microtuning as such? imo it would be cool to use quarter notes.

also, im not really clear with microtuning at all. for example i tried some exotic microtunings and they seem to contain only the given ethnics scale notes, wich restricts me quite a lot, or maybe i just sukk. :S

it was easy to write good sounding melodies with that, maybe that cause all of the notes sounds good with each other?

i know this post is retarded but its late here.

cheers

[xoxos]

i'm not an expert, i've read that maqamat employ a 17 tone pythagorean scale, though i've seen many articles on middle eastern theory mentioning half tones as such, so i doubt it's considered "17 tone pyth." in notation..

[llatham]

is there any microtuning as such? imo it would be cool to use quarter notes.

Quarter tones have been around in western harmony for a while now. If we compare western harmony with that of other cultures, and previous cultures, we find that relative microtuning is universal.

Here's the deal:

An Octave is a doubling in Frequency.

A = 110 Hz
A up an octave = 220 Hz

What happens is, in each culture, musicians decide to tune their instruments in such a way as to divide up the octave into whatever number of divisions they see fit. In fact, some cultures don't even use the octave as a boundary (so I do it here as a matter of convenience and familiarity).

We have decided, in western European descended music to divide the octave into 12 equal parts - this is called 12 tone equal temperament (12tet) (from the later Baroque period through the present).

Prior to this, musicians divided the octave into 12 notes, but used other tuning schemes, such as Just Intonation (JI) (Renaissance through early Baroque period).

Prior to this, musicians divided the octave into 8 notes of *unequal* size - some tones and some semitones. Various tuning schemes were employed (through the Middle ages and into the Renaissance)

Prior to this musician divided a Fourth (not an octave) into 4 notes of unequal, and varying size (see the Diatonic, Enharmonic, and Chromatic Genera of ancient Greece).

Dividing the Octave into more than 12 intervals is really a modern way of producing the same ratios that are found in music of other cultures. For example, when someone says 31-tone temperament,what they're doing is dividing the octave in such a way as notes of some scale - that may not in fact be a 31 note scale - can be calculated.

But in theory, since Frequency numbers are infinite, you can have an infinite number of tones per octave (or whatever boundary interval you decide upon).

It appears, most cultures have employed - an average of 5-8 note scales.

Simply put, we humans seem to - as a general rule - enjoy notes that are pronounced enough pitch differences to be noticeable as a new note, rather than an inflection of an already-heard note. Most cultures seems to gravitate towards notes that are a semitone to tone apart, with variations of a "narrow semitone (a quarter tone) to a "wide tone" (almost as big as a minor 3rd).

So "quarter tones" are nothing new. In fact, some people are so into "microtuning" they create works that focus entirely on tuning schemes, and produce no actual musical results in doing so.

Peace,
Steve

[Rottweiler]

So "quarter tones" are nothing new. In fact, some people are so into "microtuning" they create works that focus entirely on tuning schemes, and produce no actual musical results in doing so.

Peace,
Steve

so i would better learn 12-TET properly first? i just thought i could find some tunings/scales which fits better certain moods.

btw wasnt baroque music in meantone tuning?

[llatham]

so i would better learn 12-TET properly first?

No. Just learn music. Using 12tet versus JI might be compared to playing a guitar with a clean tone versus a distorted tone. The notes behind it are still the same.

i just thought i could find some tunings/scales which fits better certain moods.

Certainly. Using various tunings can impart a Middle Eastern, or Indian flair to the music for example. But, for example, there are more important musical elements to consider - for example, the use of Drones - that are more important.

In other words, you can make Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, etc. sounding music all in 12 tet (as many have done). My point is that you should avoid seeing other tunings as an "end" or "solution". They are just more like "flavoring" (unless you're doing "real" microtonal composition).

btw wasnt baroque music in meantone tuning?

A lot of experimentation was being done. Meantone, Pythagorean, Even-Tempered, Werkmeister, Kirnberger, etc.

So if anything, most Baroque performances were all in different tunings!

And remember this - when Baroque music is played on a 12tet instrument - like Gould's performances of Bach on piano, the music is still music. No one's going "but gee, Bach wrote that to be in Just Tuning, not 12 tet". They'd be more concerned if the pianist ended on the wrong chord.

Furthermore, String players and vocalists will actually adjust tunings on the fly when they're not playing against a 12tet instrument like Piano.

So in reality, even in a seemingly 12tet based performance practice, musicians are constantly fluctuating. What this means is, there is no "set" tuning, only a continually variable tuning based on performance practice.

HTH,
Steve

[Rottweiler]

wow , thanks for all that information! very useful indeed.
my researches are not over, and although i dont want to get lost in tunings and not doin music at all, but somehow i find this area really fascinating.

will report back if i have some questions.

thanks.

[jancivil]

basically, they talk about 16 or 17 tones; the 'maqam' or tone row takes generally 7 of these; different modulations, which means to different 'tone levels' of your maqam, might use different tones than the others.

the characteristic interval is spoken of as a '3/4 tone', or a 'median third', like 'E semi-flat' compared to 'C'.

these are not equidistant, when you get to the theory of say 'quarter-tones'.
the traditional music doesn't believe in that shit.
there are a number of different sets of ratios in the theory.

I know a REAL good book on it, I'll be back tomorrow with the exact title. 'Music of The Arabs' I'm pretty sure, but the author name I can't recall.

[jancivil]

In other words, you can make Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, etc. sounding music all in 12 tet (as many have done).

That's really nonsense. I respect your knowledge tremendously, llatham, on western music.

but that's totally bullshit. the character of Arab music, the whole thought; is utterly antithetical to e.t.

[Rottweiler]

In other words, you can make Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, etc. sounding music all in 12 tet (as many have done).

That's really nonsense. I respect your knowledge tremendously, llatham, on western music.

but that's totally bullshit. the character of Arab music, the whole thought; is utterly antithetical to e.t.

mo,no thats not bullshit, indeed some folks already done arbic sounding stuff in 12 tet. not fully authentic but good for a degree,i guess it was more because of the timbre than the intervals.

ahh,also: does sy know a good explanation about the intonation and the timbre?
i have heard some,in the acoustic realm fairly dissonant sounding tunings can be useful for electronic music production, depending on the electronic sounds overtone structure [sorry if that term does not exist].

[llatham]

In other words, you can make Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, etc. sounding music all in 12 tet (as many have done).

That's really nonsense. I respect your knowledge tremendously, llatham, on western music.

but that's totally bullshit. the character of Arab music, the whole thought; is utterly antithetical to e.t.

Testy, testy.

*OBVIOUSLY* to be "authentic" one music make use of the same materials - and even exact same materials as the source music - tuning, scales, rhythm, etc.

The same is even true for western music when we use "authentic performance" practices.

I think the point here is that rottweiler is not looking to play "Arabic Music" authentically, but to incorporate elements into his/her compositions that give it an "Arabic", "oriental" "other-cultural", etc. flair. Yes, many of those elements are cliched (think of the "snake charmer" melody so often played by oboeists) but they still make for valid compositional tools.

Steve

[llatham]

in the acoustic realm fairly dissonant sounding tunings can be useful for electronic music production, depending on the electronic sounds overtone structure [sorry if that term does not exist].

Yes, overtone structure is an appropriate term.

There are two types of sound:

Simple and Complex (or Compound).

A Sine wave is a Simple wave. It consists of one vibrational frequency, called the Fundamental.

Sine waves can be produced electronically and the closest acoustic instruments would be Flute, Recorder, Flute stops on an Organ, etc. (those instruments have only one or two more overtones beyond the fundamental).

Compound waves are the Fundamental plus 1 to infinity overtones (which virtually all existing, non-electronically produced sine wave sounds are).

The number of overtones (zero to infinity), and their relationship to the Fundamental are responsible for the Timbre, or "tone color" of the sound. Timbre is what makes a Flute sounds like a Flute, and a Trumpet sound like a Trumpet.

YOu might thing of the Overtone Structure of a sound as being that sound's "fingerprint".

Now, if you have Periodic Compound waves, the overtones vibrate in Harmonic proportion (whole number ratios) to the Fundamental. This is where the word "Harmonics" should be applies, though it's often used generically to mean "overtone" too. This is what happens in most instruments where a definite pitch can be determined.

If the waves are Aperiodic (or in some way vibrate in non whole number ratios) , they will produce Inharmonic overtones. This produces sounds where, they are pitched, but it can be hard to determine what the fundamental is. Many metallic instruments, like Bells, Triangle, etc. have this kind of Inharmonicity.

(disclaimer, actually, most instruments are NOT harmonic, they produce inharmonicity of varying degrees instead, so harmonicity is more theoretical than practical, but is possible in electronics)

Now back to the periodic harmonic compound waves - this is what most instruments we're used to do. Since these have overtones at specific harmonic frequencies, what makes one sound different from another is the intensity and distribution of those overtones. Some instruments naturally produce the odd-numbered harmonics, and some produce all harmonics. Some produce harmonics that decline in amplitude rather quickly, and some rather slowly. This means that some sounds, like a Trumpet, have a very rich harmonic content, a Clarinet less so, and a Flute even less so, and a Sine Wave, none at all.

Now, if you play a sound, either naturally or electronically created, that has a prominent overtone at the 10th partial (which would be a Major 10th above the fundamental), and you use Just Intonation based on that same fundamental, a note played at that 10th will sound *very* in tune.

But, if you use a tuning scheme that varies that 10th to any degree, it will not be *as* in tune.

What this means is, the more rich, or prominent the harmonic content of a sound, the more harmonics it will have, and the more likely the harmonics of one note will clash with the fundamental or harmonics of another note, or notes when you play a chord.

This is why chords, played low, sound "muddy" because more overtones are audible, and you're hearing more "clashing" going on.

I would say, for the purposes of composition, you're getting too technical again here. Just simply play a sound, and combine it with other sounds, and see what it sounds like! If you sit around worrying which overtones a sound should contain so that it meshes with X tuning, you may produce music that's "As in tune as theorectically possible" that consists of only a few notes - because inevetably, there's going to be clashes.

That's one of the reasons 12tet came about - rather than trying to "constantly tune" or make something "the most in tune", 12tet is a big fat compromise - everything is "equally out of tune". And it seems to have worked for quite some time - with all kinds of timbres.

HTH,
Steve

[Rottweiler]

Yes, overtone structure is an appropriate term.

There are two types of sound:

Simple and Complex (or Compound).

A Sine wave is a Simple wave. It consists of one vibrational frequency, called the Fundamental.

Sine waves can be produced electronically and the closest acoustic instruments would be Flute, Recorder, Flute stops on an Organ, etc. (those instruments have only one or two more overtones beyond the fundamental).

Compound waves are the Fundamental plus 1 to infinity overtones (which virtually all existing, non-electronically produced sine wave sounds are).

The number of overtones (zero to infinity), and their relationship to the Fundamental are responsible for the Timbre, or "tone color" of the sound. Timbre is what makes a Flute sounds like a Flute, and a Trumpet sound like a Trumpet.

YOu might thing of the Overtone Structure of a sound as being that sound's "fingerprint".

Now, if you have Periodic Compound waves, the overtones vibrate in Harmonic proportion (whole number ratios) to the Fundamental. This is where the word "Harmonics" should be applies, though it's often used generically to mean "overtone" too. This is what happens in most instruments where a definite pitch can be determined.

If the waves are Aperiodic (or in some way vibrate in non whole number ratios) , they will produce Inharmonic overtones. This produces sounds where, they are pitched, but it can be hard to determine what the fundamental is. Many metallic instruments, like Bells, Triangle, etc. have this kind of Inharmonicity.

(disclaimer, actually, most instruments are NOT harmonic, they produce inharmonicity of varying degrees instead, so harmonicity is more theoretical than practical, but is possible in electronics)

Now back to the periodic harmonic compound waves - this is what most instruments we're used to do. Since these have overtones at specific harmonic frequencies, what makes one sound different from another is the intensity and distribution of those overtones. Some instruments naturally produce the odd-numbered harmonics, and some produce all harmonics. Some produce harmonics that decline in amplitude rather quickly, and some rather slowly. This means that some sounds, like a Trumpet, have a very rich harmonic content, a Clarinet less so, and a Flute even less so, and a Sine Wave, none at all.

Now, if you play a sound, either naturally or electronically created, that has a prominent overtone at the 10th partial (which would be a Major 10th above the fundamental), and you use Just Intonation based on that same fundamental, a note played at that 10th will sound *very* in tune.

But, if you use a tuning scheme that varies that 10th to any degree, it will not be *as* in tune.

What this means is, the more rich, or prominent the harmonic content of a sound, the more harmonics it will have, and the more likely the harmonics of one note will clash with the fundamental or harmonics of another note, or notes when you play a chord.

This is why chords, played low, sound "muddy" because more overtones are audible, and you're hearing more "clashing" going on.

thank you again for your tutorial. everything is perfectly understandable and it just reinforces me in what i learned in the past days.

I would say, for the purposes of composition, you're getting too technical again here. Just simply play a sound, and combine it with other sounds, and see what it sounds like! If you sit around worrying which overtones a sound should contain so that it meshes with X tuning, you may produce music that's "As in tune as theorectically possible" that consists of only a few notes - because inevetably, there's going to be clashes.

yes, im getting too technical i know, but at this week i dont want to produce music cause im resting my ears, so its time to learn you know

That's one of the reasons 12tet came about - rather than trying to "constantly tune" or make something "the most in tune", 12tet is a big fat compromise - everything is "equally out of tune". And it seems to have worked for quite some time - with all kinds of timbres.

HTH,
Steve

thank you for this whole conversation.

[Rottweiler]

llatham: private message sent.

[jancivil]

really, to call Arabic music 'microtonal' music, is very silly.

do you call blues music on a guitar, or sung, 'microtonality'? Good grief.

again, they Do Not Use equidistant intervals in this music, not in the real thing.

it isn't 24 note ET. Never was. 'quarter-tones' is an approximation.
in the 10th century CE, Al Farabi had Theoretically divided the octave into 25 intervals.
(good ol Al)

I'll give you the 1st tetrachord:

Ratio 1/1 256/243 18/17 162/149 54/49 9/8 32/37 81/68 27/22 81/64 4/3
cents 0 90 98 145 168 204 294 303 355 408 498

then a 'tone' (4/3 to 3/2, a diff of 9/8 or 204 cents), and another tetrachord.

in practice you'd take seven of these potential tones and make a scale:

Ratio 1/1 9/8 27/22 4/3 3/2 18/11 19/9
cents 0 204 355 498 702 853 996

their traditional instruments are constructed according to one or other of these 'theories';
and you can get, generally around 17 tones according to where in the fret and how you put your finger...

[jancivil]

In other words, you can make Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, etc. sounding music all in 12 tet (as many have done).

That's really nonsense. I respect your knowledge tremendously, llatham, on western music.

but that's totally bullshit. the character of Arab music, the whole thought; is utterly antithetical to e.t.

Testy, testy.

*OBVIOUSLY* to be "authentic" one music make use of the same materials - and even exact same materials as the source music - tuning, scales, rhythm, etc.

The same is even true for western music when we use "authentic performance" practices.

I think the point here is that rottweiler is not looking to play "Arabic Music" authentically, but to incorporate elements into his/her compositions that give it an "Arabic", "oriental" "other-cultural", etc. flair. Yes, many of those elements are cliched (think of the "snake charmer" melody so often played by oboeists) but they still make for valid compositional tools.

Steve

oh good grief. I'm being frank. I showed you your propers; and then I called a spade a spade.

why talk about it if it's less than authentic, as anything worthy at all of discussion?
it's the MOST cheesy effect when you fake it with tools that aren't up to the task.

when a film composer does this crap, guess what? I go all testy and call 'em a hack.